THE "NEW MEDICINE"

by Dr. R. G. Hamer

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

The following has been translated from a tape recording in German produced by "Amici di Dirk" Verlag, Köln, Germany.

It is meant as an introduction to Dr. Ryke Geerd Hamer’s "NEW MEDICINE" and his books "CANCER, ILLNESS OF THE PSYCHE" [1984] and "LEGACY OF A NEW MEDICINE, Volume 1, The Ontogenetic System of Tumors including Cancer, Leukaemia, Psychosis and Epilepsy" [1987].
This information will familiarise you with the subject of these books.
It is also necessary in order to understand the tape recording in which specific illnesses are discussed; for example, different kinds of cancers and cancer equivalent illnesses.

Q. 1 Dr. Hamer, what prompted your research into cancer and making a connection between the psyche and illness?

A. I didn’t really occupy myself with this until 1978. I was a doctor of internal medicine and had worked for fifteen years in university clinics, five as a professor. I also had my own private practice for a few years until 1978. Then a terrible thing happened: while asleep in a boat my son Dirk was shot, without any reason, by a madman, an Italian prince. This was a terrible shock for me, sudden and unexpected, and I was powerless to react.
Everyday events or conflicts don’t usually catch us so "off guard". We generally have a chance to anticipate the normal conflicts that we face in life, but the conflicts we are unable to prepare for and which cause this helplessness and inability to react, create, in essence, a panic shock. We call these biological conflicts.
In 1978 I developed testicle cancer from just such a biological conflict, a so-called "loss conflict". Since I had never been seriously ill, I wondered if my condition had anything to do with the death of my son. Three years later, as chief of internal medicine in a so-called gynecology-oncology clinic at Munich University, I had the opportunity to study female patients with cancer and to compare my findings to see if the mechanism was the same as mine; if they too had experienced such a terrible shock.
I found that all of them, without exception, had experienced the same type of biological conflict as I had. They were able to recollect the shock, the resulting sleeplessness, weight loss, cold hands and the beginning of tumor growth. At the time, my point of view was very different from all the current medical concepts, and when I presented these discoveries to my colleagues, they gave me an ultimatum: either to deny my findings or leave the clinic immediately.

Q. 2 It sounds like the Middle Ages! How did you react?

A. I couldn’t deny what I believed to be the truth, so of course I left. This unjust dismissal caused me another biological conflict and I lost my self-confidence. I vividly recall my frustration and disappointment at being expelled from the clinic for presenting well-researched, incontestable and new scientific knowledge. I had not thought such a thing possible. It was very traumatic and I had a difficult time examining the last two hundred patients. I finished my studies, however, and on the last day, the IRC - the IRON RULE OF CANCER - was born.

Q. 3 Perhaps you can explain in simple terms what the essential criteria of the IRC are?

A. The IRC is a biological law. It has three criteria. The first is that every cancer or cancer-equivalent ailment develops with a DHS. This is a very severe, highly acute, dramatic and isolating conflict-occurrence shock which registers simultaneously on three levels:
  1. in the psyche
  2. in the brain
  3. on the organ
 The DHS is the DIRK HAMER SYNDROME. I called it this because the shock of my son’s death caused my testicular cancer. This DHS has since become the main focal point of the New Medicine.
In every individual case of illness, we have to conscientiously find the DHS, with all its variables. We have to think back to the specific occurrence to understand why someone became afflicted with this biological conflict problem; the reason why it was so traumatic; why there was nobody to discuss it with and why it was a problem.
A good doctor has to be able to transpose himself into the soul of an infant, an embryo, an old man, a young girl or even an animal. He must transpose himself into the actual time of the DHS. Only then will he be able to discover the biological conflict and distinguish it from hundreds of other problems.

Q. 4 The IRC has two more criteria?

A. Yes. The second criterion is that at the time of the DHS it is the conflict-content that determines (a) the HH, which is the specific location in the brain, and (b) the location of the cancer or cancer-equivalent in the body’s organs. Each conflict has a very specific content which defines itself at exactly the same moment as the DHS. The product/result of the conflict-content is ”associative”, which means that it happens unconsciously and will therefore bypass our conscious understanding. An example of a typical ”water-” or ”liquid-” conflict would be from an accident in which a truck driver lost all his oil, or a milkman all his milk. The association with liquid causes a water-related biological conflict which registers as a specific ailment - cancer of the kidney.

Q. 5 That means then that every conflict-content or event relates to a well-defined kind of cancer and is registered in a specific area of the brain?

A. Yes, a very specific relay in the brain. In the case of the kidney cancer caused by a water or liquid event, a short circuit occurs at the moment of the DHS in a pre-determined place in the brain, causing a problem in the right or left kidney, as the case may be.
This short-circuit can be photographed with a computed-tomography (CT) and looks like concentric rings on a target, or like a picture of a surface of water into which a stone has been dropped. Radiologists mistake this phenomenon as a defect in the equipment. This relay in the brain is called the HH. This name, by the way, comes from my opponents who mockingly called these areas the ‘HAMERsche Herde’ - Hamer’s comical seats.

Q. 6 And what is the third criterion of the IRC?

A. The third criterion is that the conflict course corresponds with a specific course of the HH in the brain and a very specific course of cancer or cancer-equivalent illness on the organ.
In other words, this biological conflict strikes on three levels simultaneously: the psyche, the brain and the organ. It is now obvious and has been proven that the course of the conflict is synchronized on all three levels.
The point here is that it is a determined system in the strongest scientific sense because, if you know the exact location of any one of the levels, the other two can be found and unlocked. This means we have an organism that we can think of in three levels, but is actually one unit.
The following story is an example of this: after a lecture in Vienna in May 1991, a doctor handed me a brain computed-tomogram of a patient and asked me to explain what this person’s organic state was and to which conflict it belonged. There were twenty colleagues present, among them some radiologists and CT specialists. Of the three levels, I had only the brain level in front of me. From these brain CT scans I diagnosed a fresh bleeding bladder carcinoma in the healing phase, an old prostate carcinoma, diabetes, an old lung carcinoma and a sensoric paralysis of a specific area in the body and, of course, the corresponding conflicts. The doctor stood up and said "Congratulations, Mr. Hamer! Five diagnoses and five hits. That’s exactly what the patient has, and you could even differentiate what he has now and what he had before. Fantastic!". One of the radiologists said "From now on I’m convinced of your method. How could you have guessed the fresh bleeding bladder carcinoma? I could find nothing in the CT scan, but now that you have shown us the relays, I can follow the findings."

Q. 7 Perhaps we could talk for a moment about the psychic level. How can I find out if I have had a shock from which a cancer might result? How does one recognize it?

A. There are very specific signs which clearly distinguish the ordinary conflicts and problems in our daily lives. From the very moment of a DHS, a patient will experience continuous stress on the sympathetic nervous system. The symptoms will include cold hands and/or feet, loss of appetite, weight loss, sleeplessness and dwelling day and night on the conflict content. This situation will only change when the patient resolves the conflict. Through the biological conflicts, we can see the patient getting into long-lasting stress which will cause specific symptoms and a growing cancer. The HH in the brain, which is immediately visible, shows that the patient’s psyche has very precisely-known and defined symptoms which cannot be overlooked.

Q. 8 What happens now, when such a biological conflict gets solved?

A. At the point where a biological conflict gets solved, we can see very clear symptoms, on the psychic level, on the brain and on the organ level. On the psychic and vegetative level, we see that the patient is no longer dwelling on the conflict content. The hands suddenly get warm again, the appetite improves, the weight normalizes and the patient sleeps better. There may also be fatigue and weakness and a need to rest. This is in no way the beginning of the end, but it’s a very positive sign. This healing phase varies in duration, depending on the prior conflict duration. At the height of the healing phase, when the body retains a lot of water, we see the epilepsy or epileptoide crisis, which shows the unique symptoms of each illness.
After the epileptoide crisis, the body expels water from the edema (infiltration of tissues with water) and slowly returns to normal as the patient regains strength. On the brain level we see the healing phase of the HH which, in the active conflict phase, had target ring figurations, but now shows an edema. We can see from the CT scan how the rings of the HH darken and blur as the whole relay swells at this point in time. This epilepsy or epileptoide crisis, which actually gets triggered by the brain, also marks the high point of the edema and, respectively, the turning point to normality. In the second half of the healing phase, the brain’s harmless connective tissue, the glia, fills the HH for repair. This really harmless connective tissue, which we can colour white on the CT scan with an iodine contrast substance, was previously mistaken as a brain tumor, and operated on. Since the brain cells themselves CANNOT multiply after birth, REAL brain tumors cannot exist.
On the organ level we see that the cancer growth stops. This means that the biological conflict has been solved - we call this "conflictolysis". This is a very important perception for us which, in a way, programs the therapy ahead. On the organ level we see very distinct healing improvements which we will discuss later. Even the epileptoide crisis can be seen on the three levels (psyche, brain and organ).

Q. 9 Can you describe such an epilepsy crisis?

A. The epilepsy crisis is something Mother Nature devised a billion years ago. It runs on all three levels at the same time. The sense and purpose of the crisis, which happens at the height of the healing phase, is to normalize again. What we call an epilepsy cramp-spasm with muscle cramps is only one form of the epilepsy crisis, namely, after resolving a motoric conflict.
Epileptoide crises occur in every illness with some variations in each. Mother Nature created quite a trick for this meaningful event. In the middle of the healing phase, the patient experiences a recurrence of the psychological conflict, which means the patient experiences his/her conflict again for a short time together with cold hands and centralized cold sweat. This happens so that the brain edema gets suppressed and eliminated and the patient can return to normal.
After the epilepsy crisis, the patient gets warm again and then experiences the first urinary phase. From this epilepsy crisis on, the patient normalizes and no more conflict shocks impede the process. The second urinary phase occurs at the end of the healing phase when the body eliminates the rest of the edema. The danger point lies just before the end of the epileptoide crisis when it will become evident whether it was enough to turn the disease around. The best-known epilepsy crisis is the heart attack. Others are lung embolism, hepatitis or lung infection.
To help the body make the necessary changes, especially in conflicts of long duration, a strong cortisone injection is sometimes necessary. In very difficult cases, the cortisone may be given sooner.

Q. 10 Could you describe some typical conflicts and explain why you call them ”biological conflicts”?

A. The reason we call them biological conflicts is because historical evolution has to be understood and an analogy found, as the conflicts run analogously in humans and animals. They have nothing to do with our intellectual or psychological conflicts or problems. They are conflicts of a fundamentally different quality. They are, by nature, quasi-implanted trouble-events in the archaic behaviour program of our brain. You think that you think. In reality, the conflict has already associatively hit a fraction of a second before you even begin to think. For example, when a wolf preys on a young lamb, the lamb’s mother will suffer a mother-child conflict just as a human mother would. She will get teat cancer on the same side as a human mother would get breast cancer. The side depends on whether the human is left or right-handed or, in the case of animals, left or right-footed.
The HH for the mother-child "nest territory" conflict will be in the same place in the mother’s brain as the relay for the mother-child "relationship". The HH for the child-mother conflict, especially the suck-behaviour conflict, will also be in the same place in the infant’s brain as the relay for the child-mother "relationship". All our biological conflicts can be categorized according to this historical evolution. We know that during our historical evolution these rare or unusual events and their consequences have been programmed and that’s why not only organs and brain areas belong together but even conflicts, through historical evolution, became related.
All these psyche-related trouble events lie historically and organically very close together in our brain. They even have the same histological cell formation. We can see such wonderful order in nature once we learn to look at our organism from its historical evolution.

Q. 11 Could you give a few examples from daily life?

A. Yes. Let us suppose a mother is holding her child by the hand, standing on the sidewalk and conversing with her neighbour. The child pulls away and runs onto the street. The squeal of brakes is heard as the child is hit. The mother had no warning and was caught totally off guard. She freezes from the shock. The child is taken to the hospital and is in critical condition for days. The mother gets ice cold hands, cannot sleep or eat and experiences constant stress from which a knot begins to grow in her left breast, if she is right-handed. She suffers a typical mother-child conflict, with a target formation in the right cerebellum. From the moment the child returns home and the doctor says ”We were lucky, the child is well again” the mother’s hands will warm up and the conflict-solving phase will start; she will sleep better and regain her appetite. This is a typical conflict which has the same consequences in humans as in animals.
Another example: a woman catches her husband in bed with her best girlfriend. She will suffer a sexual-frustration conflict. In biological language, the conflict being copulation, it will cause a carcinoma in the uterus of a right-handed woman. Not everyone would necessarily get such a conflict in the same situation. For instance, if the woman didn’t love her husband and was contemplating divorcing him, she would not feel this shock as a sexual conflict but rather as a human conflict because of the lack of unity in the family. The conflict would then be a partner conflict that would cause breast cancer in the right breast if the woman was right-handed. What appears to be the same event will have a different psychological significance for every individual.
The decisive issue is not what happened but how the patient felt the experience in the psychic moment of the DHS. This same event could also be a fear-revolt conflict, bringing on hypoglycemia (abnormally low blood sugar), if the woman caught her husband in a very ugly situation, perhaps with a prostitute. Or it could bring on a feeling of self-worthlessness with or without a sexual conflict, if the woman caught her husband with a girl twenty years younger. The feeling then may be "I can’t compete" or "I can’t offer him what she can." In such a case, it would be the skeleton, the pubic bone of the pelvis, that would be stricken, where one would see osteolysis (calcium deficiency) as a sign of feelings of sexual self-worthlessness.
You have to know all this to find out what the patient thought at the time of the DHS because it is in that instant that the path is laid on which the course of the illness will continue. This path paints a very significant picture because all eventual set-backs and residual problems will be contingent on this one-time event. We can even talk here about a conflict allergy.

Q. 12 Dr. Hamer, can one already treat a patient with the IRC?

A. In principle, yes, but the IRC is only the first law of the biological process of the New Medicine. Altogether, we have four biological processes which I have found empirically, which means they are now observable in up to 15,000 collected and documented cases. If one works conscientiously, one should examine all four biological processes.

Q. 13 Let us follow the sequence. What is the second law of the biological process that you found?

A. The second biological law of the New Medicine is the fact that every illness has two phases.

Q. 14 All illnesses? Not only cancer?

A. Yes, all illnesses have this two-fold phase - ”cold” and ”hot”. In the past, doctors saw about 1,000 illnesses but were unaware of this two-fold phase. 500 of these would have been ”cold” illnesses in which the patient’s blood vessels contracted, causing pallor and weight loss. The other 500 were ”hot” illnesses with fever caused by dilated blood vessels. This produced tiredness, but no loss of appetite. These ”hot” illnesses were thought to be separate illnesses. We now know that this was incorrect. According to our present knowledge, only 500 illnesses have a two-fold phase. The first is always the ”cold” active conflict phase with the stress on the sympathetic nervous system, and the second, if the conflict is solved, is always the ”hot” recovery healing phase. Of course, the HH for these two phases lies in the same place in the brain, so you can consider them the same HH. In the active conflict phase, the CT scan shows a sharp ring target and, in the healing phase, the rings dissolve in the edema.
From this example, we see that this biological law is important not only for cancer, but for all medicine. Even an old hart (a deer’s mate) which gets driven out of his territory by a young hart, will be in lasting stress, enduring a biological conflict; namely, a territory conflict with an HH over the right ear in the brain. The hart charges, wanting only to win back his territory. He doesn’t eat or sleep, he loses weight and gets a heart cramp or angina pectoris. Organically speaking, he has an ulcera, which means he has small abscesses in the coronary artery. He charges the younger hart because it is the only way to get the rival out of his territory. After this action he will go into a long-lasting healing (vagotony) phase. He will get his warm extremities back, will eat again and be very tired. At the height of the healing phase, he experiences a heart attack as an epileptoide crisis. If he survives, he will be able to keep his territory. It’s the same in the animal world as with humans. For a man, his territory would be his farm, his own business, the family or his workplace. We have several share-territories; even a car can be a territory.
In humans, a heart attack will only be noticeable if the conflict has lasted at least three or four months; however, if the conflict has lasted longer than a year and the start of the second phase has been overlooked, it is usually fatal. The brain CT scan is a very quick way to diagnose this. One can ask why medical doctors did not discover this law of the two-fold phases a long time ago, as it is so obvious. The answer is as easy as it was difficult before. If the conflict does not get solved, the illness stays in the first phase, meaning that the individual stays in the active conflict phase, getting thinner all the time and in the end dying from enervation or cachexia. The law of the two-fold phases in all illnesses applies only where the individual can solve the conflict. Nevertheless, this law applies to every illness and respectively, to every conflict because, in principle, every conflict can be solved in various ways.

Q. 15 Dr. Hamer, what is the third biological law you found?

A. It is the ontogenetic system of tumors and cancer equivalents.

Q. 16 What does the technical term ”ontogenetic” mean?

A. Ontogenetic means that all illnesses in medicine derive from the historical evolution of man.

Q. 17 How did you discover it?

A. I discovered the ontogenetic system of tumors and cancer- equivalents after observation of about 10,000 cases. I worked absolutely empirically, like a good scientist should. I documented all the collected cases, the computed tomograms of the brain with their histological findings. Only after I had put them all together and compared them did I see that there was a system. It was breathtaking, particularly since we had never thought it possible.
There were many patients in whom compact tumors grew with cell- augmentation in the active conflict phase (or sympathicotony phase) but in others grew something in the healing phase (or vagotony phase) after the conflict was solved (conflictolysis). It just couldn’t be the same illness. So there were two sorts of cell augmentations: Illnesses which have cell-dwindling or cell-shrinkage (holes, necrosis or ulcers, also called abscesses) in the active phase - have cell-augmentation in the healing phase. I compared these different findings and could always see the system. The tumors that formed in the active conflict phase cell- augmentation always had their relays together in the medulla oblongata and cerebellum. These two brain parts are together called "the old brain".
All cancer illnesses, therefore, which build cell-augmentation in the active conflict phase, have their relay, their HH, from where they get their directions, in the old brain. And all cancer illnesses which build cell-augmentation or so-called tumors (but have, in the active conflict phase, holes, ulcers or necrosis), always receive their relay from the cerebrum.
This systematic connection was discovered in 1987 and called the "ontogenetic system of tumors and cancer-equivalents". With the iron rule of cancer and the rule that there are two phases in all illnesses, the very first systematic classification of the New Medicine was laid out.
‘Ontogenesis’ means the origin and development of the individual living being. ‘Ontogenetic’ means relating to the development of the individual being. So the ontogenetic system of tumors means that neither the location of the HH in the brain nor the kind of tumor or necrosis that subsequently develops, happen simply by chance, because everything has been logically pre-destined in the historical evolution of man.
It is said that ontogeny is a recapitulation of phylogeny (the evolutionary development of an organism or groups of organisms), which means that the development of the different species up to the human is repeated in the embryonal time of the child and during infancy. We know that during embryonal development, three primitive cell layers are created since the very first development of the embryo and all the organs derive from these three primitive cell layers: Every cell and every organ in our body can be seen in relation to one of these cell-layers. The organs that develop from the inner cell-layer have their relay or steering place in the medulla oblongata, the oldest part of the brain. In cancer cases, they produce cell-augmentation with compact tumors of the adeno cell type.
The cells, respectively organs, which developed from the outer cell-layer have their relay or steering place in the cerebral cortex of the cerebrum, the youngest part of our brain. In cancer cases, they all cause cell-dwindling in the form of abscesses or ulcera or they sacrifice a function on the organic level, like diabetes or paralysis.
In the middle cell layer, we must differentiate between the older and the younger group. The cells, respectively organs, which belong to the older group of the middle cell layer, have their relays in the cerebellum, which means they still belong to the old brain and therefore produce a compact tumor of the adenoide cell type in the active conflict phase.
The cells, respectively organs, which belong to the younger group of the middle cell layers, have their steering place in the marrow layer of the cerebrum. They therefore produce necrosis or tissue holes, respectively, cell-dwindling-like holes in bones, the spleen, the kidneys or ovaries, named bone-, spleen-, kidney-osteolyse or ovary necrosis, in the active conflict phase, in cancer cases.
From this one can see that cancer is not a nonsensical development of wildly growing cells. It is an understandable and even foreseeable occurrence which adheres precisely to the ontogenetic system.

Q. 18 Not all growths are the same. Perhaps you could clarify and explain the differences in growths in specific illnesses?

A. Yes, that’s exactly why, until now, one couldn’t detect a system in cancer formation. According to the present school of medicine, which I now call the ”medicine of pupils”, there is a classification which has no systematic connection. People say there is cancer when cells produce an overflowing growth but, as we can now see, cells can build different overflowing growth in different phases, as in the active conflict phase and the healing phase.
For instance, a patient has an indigestion-conflict, as if he has half swallowed a big chunk but can’t digest it. Let’s say he bought a house and suddenly found that the sale contract was not valid, that he had been taken in and lost the house. From this he could develop a stomach carcinoma but also a cell-augmentation in the stomach called adeno carcinoma, a cauliflower-like growth in the stomach. This carcinoma happens in the active conflict phase with the HH on the right side of the medulla oblongata, which is the oldest part of the brain, in the so-called "ponds".
Another example: a patient suffers a conflict with water, liquid or an equivalent; while swimming in the ocean, the young patient loses his strength, is close to drowning but is saved at the last minute. For months he dreams about drowning and can’t go close to water. He suffers from a kidney parenchyma necrosis cancer and develops cell decay (necrosis) in the kidney parenchyme (meaning kidney tissue), until the kidney can no longer function. Years later, the patient takes a holiday with his family by the ocean. As his daughter loves the water, he joins her in the ocean; with this action he solves his conflict. In the healing phase, a big kidney cyst grows, a cell augmentation. This cyst indurates (gets hard) with a kind of connective tissue that helps the kidney in its task of urination. And so we arrive at the original reason for the tumor. These cancers or tumors are by no means senseless; on the contrary, they are something rather useful.
As in our example, when a big chunk is swallowed and not digested, the organism produces a powerful tumor. This tumor has grown because the digestive and intestinal cells produced a lot of digestive juice in order to digest the chunk.
This same intelligence can be seen with the kidney cyst which built a big new kidney which could urinate again. This is the reason for the different cell growth tumors which we couldn’t distinguish before.
We can now precisely differentiate between them and distinguish them in the brain according to the histological formation and conflicts. All these connections are summarized in this ontogenetic system of tumors and cancer equivalents.
Every illness we know in medicine runs along these four biological laws. They can be examined and reproduced after this ontogenetic system of tumors and cancer equivalents.
The phenomena in the psyche and in the brain are equal during the same phase, but on the organic level they differ. Here we see the old brain steering organs to build cell-augmentation in the active conflict phase, while the cerebrum steers organs to form holes, necroses or ulcers or cell-decay in the active conflict phase. In the healing phase they act in reverse. In the healing phase the old brain steers organs to break down tumors with the help of special microbes, while the cerebrum is steering organs during the healing phase to fill the holes and ulcers with the help of viruses and bacteria, by swelling.

Q. 19 I suppose we now come to the fourth law?

A. Yes, the ontogenetical system of microbes.

Q. 20 Dr. Hamer, what role do microbes play in your system? What is the connection with the immune system?

A. Up until now, we thought that microbes caused infections. This view seemed correct as we found microbes in every infection. But in reality, it is not true. The whole immune system is only a ‘fata morgana’, built on hypothesis.
In avoidable illnesses we also forgot or overlooked the first phase, the active conflict phase. Only after the conflict is solved do the microbes become active. Indeed, they are directed and activated by our brain. They are NOT our enemies; they are helping us and are working on the ordering of our organism. As they are directed from our brain, they help us to break down cancer tumors after their task is fulfilled, or while the bacteria and viruses build up the holes, necrosis and tissue damage from the other cerebrum groups. They are our faithful helpers, our guest workers! The concept of the immune system, the army that fights against the bad microbes, is simply wrong.

Q. 21 This connection brings lung tuberculosis to mind. How could all those people who, fifty years ago had to stay in sanatoriums, heal their lung TBC?

A. If we leave the rib cage TBC to one side and concentrate on the real lung TBC, then we can say that lung TB was always the healing phase after an advanced pulmonary cancer. This pulmonary cancer is always a death-fear conflict and always directed from our medulla oblongata. It grows in the active conflict phase, but reduces in the healing phase through the mycobacterium and tuberculoses bacteria; if some of these bacteria are present, they will be coughed out, often with blood sputum called expectoration which frightened people and brought them a new death-fear, so that the doctors felt they were in a vicious circle.
In animals it functions true to the pattern; the lung tumors are coughed out and what is left are the cavities which allow better breathing than before; but if the tubercle fungus bacteria are missing, the round seats will stay.
Today, after all these decades, we still find some of the old pulmonary seats even though they are inactive because they can’t grow any more. In former days we saw the cavities, empty tuberculomen, because there were tubercle bacillus everywhere.

Q. 22 Dr. Hamer, perhaps we could come to the practical therapy of the conflicts. Is conversation therapy your first step?

A. One can’t really say that. We don’t ne