Alchemy Forum 0351-0400

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 351-400.
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Thu Feb 29 20:06:53 1996
Subject: 0351 Thomas Vaughan

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:34:29 GMT
From: dafydd roberts

There was at least some hoo-ha made last year re. the death of the Silurist, poet
poet Henry Vaughan whose death was some three hundred years previous.
I thought it would be good to note that this Friday, March the First, St.
David's day too, marks the burial of Thomas Vaughan at Albury, Oxfordshire also.
Vaughan is described variously as having died from inhalation of mercury fumes
or even from an exploding laboratory [this is all well known, I realise I should
have said to be plain that he died 27 Feb.1666..]
In connection with Vaughan can anyone help me with what Beryl is? I have an
idea from Rulandus but anything else will be very useful? Further to this
I understand that Dee wrote a tract called the Ars Beryllistica: I can't
find any references to it tho [it was mentioned in passing at the Dee colloquium
held at Birkbeck last April]:any help will be most gratefully received

dafydd roberts

Fri Mar 01 09:23:52 1996
Subject: 0352 Octaves/Harmonics

From: Steve Rosen
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:26:54

Simeon Nartoomid wrote that, in the context he was using the term
"octave,"

> the sound would not be audible, but exist in the etheric
> dimensions of spiritual reality. All matter has a specific frequency of
> emission, created by the vibratory activity of its atoms. Again, most of
> these sounds are not perceivable to the physical ear. An individual who is
> sensitively attuned to the subtler dimensions of reality might very well be
> able to perceive them.

I suggest that the inaudibility in question may not just entail the
vibration of atoms but the _sub_atomic realm. Octaves of the former
may be inaudible to the human ear but detectible by physical devices.
In the case of subatomic processes, particularly the sub-quantum
environment within the Planck length, vibration would be physically
undetectible in principle. What I am suggesting is that "spiritual
reality" may involve this sub-quantum domain.

Steve Rosen

> So, the Etherium / Orme powders are a form of Prima Matra, but vibrating or
> emitting etheric sounds at a frequency some octaves below the original prima
> Matra or first unviolate matter. It is similar in concept to water being an
> octave of steam, the water inherently contains less energy than the staem,
> but vibrates, or emits etheric sounds at some harmonic of the steam. The
> steam due to its increased vibratory rate has changed form and somewhat
> transcended the limitations of its former state as water.
>
> This is the same principle that applies to the transfiguration of the human
> form, as some great Masters have demonstrated.
>
> From Simeon Nartoomid
> Crest in the Stone Mystery
> School
> [email protected]

Fri Mar 01 09:24:09 1996
Subject: 0353 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: John C. Merritt
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:49:04 -0600 (CST)

While we're on the subject of Mary South Atwood, The Harry Ransom Center
at the University of Texas at Austin has Thomas South's copy of Manget's
_Bibliotheca Chemica Curiosa_, which is a part of a large history of
chemistry collection there. Does anyone know of any other of his books
which are in libraries or collections that they are privy to? South's
bookplate is reproduced in his daughter's book, which is how the provanace
of this copy of BCC is known. It would be of historical interest, I
think, to know which books he had in his possession and thus which ones
would be available to Mary, if this is at all possible.

----------| John Merritt | [email protected] |---------

Fri Mar 01 09:26:07 1996
Subject: 0354 Pico

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:10:26 -0800

Torrey Waag wrote
>
>
> Does anyone know of English translations of Pico's work?
>

And i'm afraid the responses are a little obvious so forgive me:

The "oration on the dignity of Man" may be found in
Cassierier, kristeller and randall ed *the renaissance Philosophy of Man*

the 49 Cabalistic conclusions are translated by Waite in *the Holy kabbalah*

Jd Holmes publishes Pico's *A platonic discourse on love*

you might want to look at

craven's *Giovanni Pico della Mirandola: symbol of his age*

and Chriam Wirszubski's *Pico della Mirandola's encounter with Jewish
Mysticism*- a fascinating book, but with unfortunatly large slabs left in
Latin- enough of the surrounding text occasionally made sense to my very bad
latin to be worthwhile for me.

I havn't seen kristeller's "Giovani Pico della Mirandola and his sources" in
*L'opera e il pensiero di Giovanni Pico della Mirandola nella storia dell
'Umanesimo* But it is described as essential by Charles trinkaus in his *in our
Image and Likeness: Humanity and divinity in italian Humanist thought*

There is also a short chapter on Pico in Kristeller's *Eight Philsophers of the
italian renaissance*

Hope this is of some use

jon

Fri Mar 01 09:29:54 1996
Subject: 0355 Thomas Vaughan - Beryl

From: John Obrien
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:35:01 -0600 (CST)

> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:34:29 GMT
> From: dafydd roberts
> In connection with Vaughan can anyone help me with what Beryl is? I have an
> idea from Rulandus but anything else will be very useful? Further to this
> I understand that Dee wrote a tract called the Ars Beryllistica: I can't

I assume you are looking for more than the common definition of Beryl!
(A gem, similar to an emerald). However, looking through my copy of
_A Lexicon of Alchemy_ by Martin Ruland the Elder, shows only that definition
of Beryl. Pardon my error if I'm wrong, but isn't Beryl the source of
Aluminum (Or Aluminium if you're UK)?

Fri Mar 01 09:28:14 1996
Subject: 0356 Octaves/Harmonics

From: John Obrien
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:28:41 -0600 (CST)

> From: Jason Johns
> Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:30:22 PST
> > I'd venture a guess that it relates to the the way that musical notes can
> > relate in a harmonic fashion to light waves. This was relate in an artical
> > published by Paracelsus College in the early 80's. I can relate more detail
> > if anyone wants it.
> I am intrigued in this message that John wrote. Could you please provide
> further information for me? > Jayzn > [[email protected]]
>
I was afraid someone would want more info about this. It was
in an issue of Essentia which I do have around here (somewhere). It's
just going to take me a little time to actually find where I've put it.

I'll try to elaborate a bit from memory and personal experiences,
but they might be lacking a bit.

First harmonics are a pretty well known phenomena, especially
in regard to radio waves. I was a Morse Code Intercept Operator during
the early 60's and learned about and experienced the harmonic phenomena
many times. Briefly, a radio station may have a primary frequency of
say, 1000 kc (which as I recall a government morse code station called
WWV has). Even though WWV is broadcasting on 1000kc, searching the bands
further up (and down) you will find WWV also broadcasting on a multiple
of the primary frequency. For instance, at 10,000kc or at 100kc.

The harmonic will be weaker than the original and will get
weaker the further away from the primary frequency you roam.

So it is also true that sound, as in a piano note, also has
harmonics. Some can be heard right at the piano and a good sounding
piano depends on you being able to hear these sounds. But it is also
true that light waves and specifically different colored light waves,
can be harmonics of the sound waves. Some sensitive people can actually
detect the colors produced by the harmonics of a piano. Different notes
will produce different colors.

Most or many pianos tuned to the customary "A" of current day
will not produce a color harmonic. Now this is where my memory may
fail me because I'm not sure about the vibration rate which will
produce the colors. What I remember is the piano needs to be tuned
to A=440 (or A = 440 cps). The 440 could be what "A" is tuned to today;
whatever, that is my memory.

I will continue to search for the article to verify.

--
,o888b,`?~~~~~ ~~~~~P',d888o,
,8888 888 ?~~~ John D. O'Brien [email protected] ~~~P 888 8888,
8888888P' ~~~ ~~~ ?8888888
888P' ~~~ "When all the World recognizes ~~~ `?888
`88 O d~~~ good as good, This in itself ~~~b O 88'
`?._ _.o~~~~~ is Evil." Lao Tsu ~~~~~o._ _.P'

Fri Mar 01 09:29:18 1996
Subject: 0357 Thomas Vaughan - Beryl

From: Jeffrey A steele
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 16:28 CDT

George Kunz, in _The Curious Lore of Precious Stones_, has numerous references
to beryl, associating it with Egyptian rituals, with Biblical passages describing the
first temple, with the book of Revelations, and the apostles. I don't know if
any of this helps, but the book might be worth looking up.

Jeffrey Steele

Fri Mar 01 09:31:08 1996
Subject: 0358 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium

From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:51:20 -0700 (PDT)

Josh clarified my remark

> As for Dee (1527-1608) and Bruno (1548-1600) having different lifespans
> because they lived in different periods --

if bruno had stayed out of italy, or at least not been so good at
pissing people off, he would not have been burned.

if dee had gone to italy or not been such a diplomatic guy he might
have been burned.

---

Exacrly. If I hadn't been surrendering to the urge to be sarcastic
(see my earlier remark about the 30 Years War as a truly characteristic
triumph of the human spirit & of the enlightenment and tolerance
proposed by an earlier correspondent -- the one who seemed to think
Bruno and Dee lived at different periods), I would have been more
easily understood.

LeGrand
[email protected]

Fri Mar 01 09:33:07 1996
Subject: 0359 Book Search - Johann Segerus Weidenfeld

From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:06:02 -0500

How do I get ahold of the writings of one Johann Segerus Weidenfeld???

Any pointers would be most appreciated!

:) Rawn Clark ([email protected])

Fri Mar 01 09:33:55 1996
Subject: 0360 FRENCH: Un Adepte ?

From: Michel Martineau
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:22:39 -0500

At 08:58 PM 2/29/96 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Gilbert Arnold
>Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:00:04 -0500
>
>
>Ayant observe depuis quelque le contenu de ces discussions et votre
>effort louable dans le but de former un website francais j'aimerais a votre
>attention les points suivants;
>
>1) Une definition d'"Adepte" serait utile.
>
>2) En general, il ya relativement peu de contenu reellement pratique dans
>ces discussions. Le seul auteur francais recent qui a ecrit sur des travaux
>"pratiques" est Solazaref. Je sais qu'il ya eu LPN mais...
>
>Alors dites-moi, EN TERMES PRATIQUES, qu'avez a offrir a un praticien
>qui a deja fait la plupart des travaux decrits dans le Char Triomphal et le
>dernier Testament ? Glaser et Glauber ? Avez vous prepare avec succes
>le circule mineur d'Urbiger ?
>
REPONSE:

Mon cher Monsieur Gilbert Arnold, comme je m'apercoie que vous etes un praticien
tres avance, vous etes deja un adepte.

Humblement,

[email protected]

Fri Mar 01 09:35:20 1996
Subject: 0361 Beryl and Thomas Vaughan

From: Russ House
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:18:13 -0500

>Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:34:29 GMT
>From: dafydd roberts
>
>...clip...
>In connection with Vaughan can anyone help me with what Beryl is? I have an
>idea from Rulandus but anything else will be very useful? Further to this
>I understand that Dee wrote a tract called the Ars Beryllistica: I can't
>find any references to it tho [it was mentioned in passing at the Dee
colloquium
>held at Birkbeck last April]:any help will be most gratefully received
>
Beryl is considered, today, to be Beryllium aluminum silicate
(Be3Al2Si6O18), which when it is bright green is called an emerald. It has a
great variety of possible colors. The greenish-blue form is called
aquamarine, pink is called Morganite. Beryl crystalizes in hexagonal form.

The name comes from the Greek,' beryllos', which indicates any green
gemstone.(1) This is confirmed in the discussions about the High-Priest's
Breastplate of 12 stones. Stone 11 was translated variously as 'onyx' and
as 'beryl'. The first classical authors to use the name 'beryl' were in the
1st century B.C. Further, the Egyptians often made green talismans, of
'mafek', a name for various green gem materials, which included both
malachite and beryl. (2)

As far as Alchemical and spagyrical references, there is not much that I can
find. "De Boot, 1636, gives a method for extracting from Emeralds their
coloring matter which when taken internally proves so efficacious."(3)

This information tends to agree with Rulandus in his "Lexicon of Alchemy"
which you have already used as a source.

(1) From The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Rocks and
Minerals, ISBN 0-394-50269-8.
(2) From The Curious Lore of Precious Stones, by George Frederick Kunz, ISBN
0-517-67943-4.
(3) From The Occult and Curative Powers of Precious Stones, by William T.
Fernie, M.D., ISBN 0-06-062360-8.
====================================
Courses in Alchemy * Qabala * Esoteric Studies
The Philosophers of Nature on the web:
http://www.mcs.net/~alchemy/
email: [email protected]

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" - Groucho Marx

Fri Mar 01 09:38:44 1996
Subject: 0362 FRENCH: Un Adepte ? & Ugly Americans

From: VicStevens
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 02:55:16 -0500

In a message dated 96-02-29 18:53:12 EST, [email protected]
(Alchemy forum) writes:

>Un petit detail technique; quand vous ecrivez avec les accents, le texte se
>traduit drolement par les ordinateurs Nord- Americains.

Yeah, and we [North Americans] might get a good laugh out of it, too, if we
didn't just think he was having technical difficulties...

Fri Mar 01 09:38:22 1996
Subject: 0363 Thomas Vaughan - Beryl

From: Vic Stevens
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 03:07:55 -0500

In a message dated 96-02-29 19:05:07 EST, [email protected]
(Alchemy forum) writes:

>In connection with Vaughan can anyone help me with what Beryl is? I have an
>idea from Rulandus but anything else will be very useful? Further to this
>I understand that Dee wrote a tract called the Ars Beryllistica: I can't
>find any references to it tho [it was mentioned in passing at the Dee
>colloquium held at Birkbeck last April]:any help will be most gratefully
received

Author Franz Hartmann gives an explanation of terms used by Paracelsus in
"Paracelsus: Life and Prophecies", Rudolph Steiner Press, 1973, pp. 30-31:
"BERYLLUS.-a magic mirror or crystal in whose Astral aura apparitions may be
seen by the clairvoyant. BERILLISTICA ARS: The art of divining by means of
seeing in crystals, magic mirror, flowing water, looking into cups, into
stones, etc., all of which methods are calculated to render the mind passive,
and thereby to enable it to receive the impressions that the Astral light may
make upon the mental sphere of the individual, by detracting the attention
from external and sensual things, the inner man is made conscious and
receptive for its subjective impressons."

I believe we call Berillistica ars "scrying" nowadays.

Fri Mar 01 09:39:58 1996
Subject: 0364 Albigeois & alchemy

From: Maury
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 02:22:22 -0500

On 27 Feb 1996, LeGrand wrote:

>>Is there any contemporary (as opposeed to modern) documentation linking
the Albigensian movement with alchemy, either in the minds of Albigensians,
the
minds of alchemists, or the minds of political or religious opponents of
the movement?<<

Your query opens up a very rich vein for exploration. Not being familiar
with the heresiological literature, yet with some knowledge of the symbolic
thinking of the Middle Ages and medieval alchemical literature, what follows
are some conjectures on this connection derived from distilling a portion of
a document from the archives of the Inquisition at Carcassonne [Jean Benoist,
_Histoire des Albigeois et des Vaudois_]. This text may be conjectured to
have a connection with later alchemical thought. It's a Cathari text that
concerns an alleged revelation which Christ's favorite disciple John was
vouchsafed as he "rested in the Lord's bosom." John wished to know what
Satan's state was before his fall, and the Lord answered: "He was in such
splendor that he ruled the powers of heaven." He wanted to be like God, and
to this end he descended through the elements of air and water, and found
that the earth was covered with water. Penetrating beneath the surface of
the earth, "he found two fishes lying upon the waters, and they were like
oxen yoked for ploughing, holding the whole earth by commnd of the invisible
Father from sunset to sunrise [or, from West to East]. And when he went
down, he found hanging clouds which covered the broad sea....And when he went
down, he found set apart therefrom his 'Osob,' which is a kind of fire." On
account of the flames he could not descend any further, so he went back to
heaven and announced to the angels that he was going to set up his throne on
the clouds and be like the All-highest. He then treated the angels as the
unjust steward treated his master's debtors, whereupon he and the angels were
cast out of heaven by God. But God took pity on him and allowed him and his
angels to do what they liked for a week. During this time Satan, using
Genesis 1 as a model, created the world and humankind.

This belief, that the world was created by the devil, seems to have been
known in many Cathari sects during the 11th and 12th centuries. John de
Rupescissa was probably a member of the Poor Men of Lyons, who were
influenced by the Cathars. It is conceivable that the curious name for the
alchemists in *The Book of Quinte Essence,* "les poures hommes evangelisans,"
goes back to the Cathar _perfecti_ and _pauperes Christi_. According to
Ferguson, Jean de Roquetaillade (Rupescissa) lived about the middle of the
14th century and was a critic of the Church and the clergy. I understand
that the Cathar trials lasted into the middle of the 14th century. In any
case, he could be considered a connecting link with this tradition.

There are a number of important images that this Albigensian text brings up
in connection to alchemy. First off, there is the significant image of the
fall of Satan from heaven (cf. Luke 10:18 and Rev. 12:7-13) which I cannot go
into here. Then there is the word "Osob," probably an old Bulgarian word
which may be translated here as "that which is peculiar to him" [ _Osoba_ in
Russian roughly means "individual, personality," that is, something uniquely
pertaining to the individual personality]. And in this text, in the case of
the devil, "his Osob" would naturally be fire. Here one thinks of Artefius
("Clavis majoris sapientiae") where hell-fire is identical with the devil,
who has an outer body made of air and an inner one of fire, or in
Philalethes' the "Introitus apertus," we find he identifies "chalybs" (steel)
as the arcane substance, and says it is a "spirit pre-eminently pure," a
"secret, infernal, and yet most volatile fire," the "wonder of the world, the
system of the higher powers in the lower..."

The idea, in the text, of the two fishes lying on the waters, yoked together
like oxen for ploughing, recalls Augustine's interpretation of the two fishes
in the miraculous feeding of the five thousand as representing the kingly and
the priestly person or power who outlasts the turbulence of the multitude,
i.e., the fishes were thought of then as "ruling powers." For Augustine,
these two powers are united in Christ - he is both king and priest. So the
two fishes in this text may be surmised to represent two different powers or
persons, from before the creation of the world: that is, Satanael, the elder
son of God, and Christ the younger. Epiphanius reported that the Ebionites
had a similar belief in double sonship. Indeed, the above document may go
back to the confession of faith made before the emperor Alexius Comnenus by
the Bogomil bishop Basilius in 1111.

Curiously, Satan finds the two fishes before the creation, when the spirit of
God still brooded upon the dark face of the waters. Had it been one fish
only, we could have said it was a prefiguration of the Redeemer, as the
pre-existent Christ of St. John's gospel, the Logos that "was in the
beginning with God." But there are two fishes yoked together, probably
referring to the zodiacal fishes. In this instance, the fishes would
characterize the ascendent, the moment of the world's birth. Since we know
that cosmogonic myths are symbols for the coming of consciousness, then
stated psychologically, the two fishes which the devil found on the primeval
waters would signify the newly arisen world of consciousness. In comparing
the fishes with a yoke of oxen ploughing - the oxen may be surmised to
represent the motive power of the plough in the same way that the fishes
represent the driving forces of the coming world of consciousness. The
plough has stood for man's mastery over the earth, wherever man ploughs, he
has wrested a patch of soil from the primal state and put it to his own use,
that is, the fishes will rule this world and subdue it by working
astrologically through man and moulding his consciousness. This kind of
medieval "reasoning" shows up in later alchemical literature.

For instance, in the text the ploughing begins in the west and moves toward
the east. You can find this motif in Ripley who says, "Know that your
beginning should be made towards sunset, and from there you should turn
towards midnight, when the lights cease altogether to shine, and you should
remain ninety nights in the dark fire of purgatory without light. Then turn
your course towards the east, and you will pass through many different
colors...etc." In alchemical terms, the opus starts with a descent into
darkness [nigredo], the ploughing or mastery of the earth is undertaken "at
the command of the Father," and it ends when one arrives at the east and the
newborn sun.

The Catharist idea of the double fish also seems to have a connection in
alchemy though I don't know of any text that could prove that alchemy has
assimilated the Catharist fish motif or other Catharist ideas, or, for
example, could be responsible for the first emblem in Lambspringk, that is,
the double fish image, signifying the arcane substance and its inner
antinomy. That emblem pictures two reversed fishes swimming in "our sea,"
the _aqua permanens_. They are designated "spirit and soul" and indicate the
double nature of Mercurius (cf. a detail of this emblem in Emblem XXII of
Maier's *Atalanta fugiens*).

It seems with the year 1000 a new world begins. The rushing wind of the
pneuma gave rise to cults and heresies that were springing up everywhere -
the Cathari, Bogomils, Albigenses, Waldenses, Poor Men of Lyons, Patarenes,
Concorricci, Beghards, Brethren of the Free Spirit, Beguins, "Bread through
God," and whatever else these movements were called, and in the Holy Ghost
Movement of Joachim of Flora. Their visible beginnings all lay in the early
years of the 11th century. As described by Hahn, these heretical sects seem
to have certain characteristics in common: they believe themselves to be God
by nature without distinction; that they are eternal; that they have no need
of God or the Godhead; that they constitute the kingdom of heaven; that they
are immutable in the new rock; that they rejoice in naught and are troubled
by naught; that a man is bound to follow his inner instinct rather than the
truth of the Gospel; and that they believe the Gospel to contain poetical
matters which are not true.

In other words, the spirit that animated these movements shows that they were
made up of individuals who identified themselves (or were identified) with
God, who deemed themselves supermen, had a critical approach to the gospels,
followed the promptings of the inner man, and understood the kingdom of
heaven to be within. These movements, with their modern outlook, are also
connected with the rise of alchemy, Protestantism, the Enlightenment, and
natural science, leading to the devilish developments we have lived to
experience in our own era, namely, the inflationary rise of rationalism,
intellectualism, materialism, realism, and the political psychosis that
plagues our times.

Maury

Fri Mar 01 09:47:00 1996
Subject: 0365 FRENCH: accents

There is a problem with the use of accents in French text, arising from the incompatibility between different computer systems. I use a Windows PC, so people sending text from Macintosh or DOS based mailing programs may find that their accents are turned into hexadecimal code. Thus we get "=E8" or "=EA" inserted into your text instead of the appropriate accents. There may be filters or switches on some mailers which can get around this problem.

With my best wishes,

Adam McLean

Fri Mar 01 16:28:40 1996
Subject: 0366 Atwood, Eckartshausen & Kunkin

From: Logodox
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 04:38:28 -0600

Dear Forum Members,

Just finished reading Karl Von Eckartshausen's "Magic: The Principles of Higher Knowledge" and must report on it. A small section of this lofty jewel was quoted on the forum a few weeks ago and at that time I recalled Mary Anne Atwood holding Him in high esteem. She said something to the effect "He had seen further into the "BEING" than many of the great philisophical luminaries of her period. I can personally attest to those fascinated by Mrs. Atwood's STELLAR book on the spiritual aspects of the universe: RUN, DONT WALK to Your nearest bookseller and get this book by Eckartshausen. It is very highly informative. I believe this gentleman had achieved an evolutional state that we are all headed to eventually !

Was thrilled to read Art Kunkin's logn post last night. I too have read
"Suggestive Inquiry Into Hermetic Philosophy" many, many times and wish to ask :

(1) Has anyone but me noticed the (apparent) mis-naming of sections and chapters of this book? It seems some chapters have little to do (directly) with the titles. With Mrs. Atwood's obvious brilliance, it must have been a purposeful encoding ?

(2) All the mentions of the "MANUAL" (of man, of hands ?) Work.
I believe this book is difficult to understand because it requires
an experiential state of being to understand. (A very loft state indeed). Any ideas about the manual work ? Keep in mind the mentions of the Dactyl, the Eqyptians, and the children's game (passing back and forth the subject) "PATTI-CAKES" ?

(3) Tearing asunder and the Great dangers ? Could this be the loosening of the body/soul connection ? Astral travel ? I had a premature (me not ready) very,very strange set of experiences 20 years ago which seemed like I had invoked Kundalini. I can attest to the dangers.

(4) Did anyone notice the mention in the (55 ?) page foreword about
"Intra-Milecular" sight ? Could this be the "Snake-Eye" mentioned in Yogic texts ?

(5) In EUDOXUS' Six Keys: Is He talking of emotions or Intellectual forces ?

H E L P !!!

Im obsessed with the utterly profound nature of Her book. I consider it a profound endorsement (By Art Kunkin) and am starting to realize the consistency of the thread in my life. I had already concluded that Israel Regardie and Manly P. Hall were highly enlightened folks from reading their books, and I now see the connection...
What I would've given to sit at her feet and just listen for a few hundred years !

Guess Im gonna have to develop the "Reading of the Akasa" so I can
go back in time like shambala master (Kwai Chang Cain) and observe this great Lady
(Ha ha, I wish).

Has anyone read any of Steve Richard's books ? Believe he was in England.
He wrote 2 fairly interesting books: "Levitation" and "Invisibility" and I
can attest to a high degree of validity of many of his ideas...

Best,
Logodox, FRC.
nous ----> [email protected]

Fri Mar 01 18:04:09 1996
Subject: 0367 Johann Seger von Weidenfeld

There appear to be two works by Weidenfeld, the first in four editions.

1.1
De secretis adeptorum, sive de usu spiritus vini Lulliani libri IV...
Londini: Henry Hills for Mark Pardoe, 1684.

1.2
De secretis adeptorum, sive de usu spiritus vini Lulliani libri IV...
Hamburgi: Nicolaus Spieringk for Gottfried Schultze, 1685.

1.3
Four books, concerning the secrets of the adepts; or, of the use of Lully's spirit of wine. A practical work,... collected out of the ancient as well as modern fathers of adept philosophy, etc. [Translated from the Latin by G. C.]
London: William Bonny for Thomas Howkins, 1685.

1.4
De secretis adeptorum, sive de usu spiritus vini Lulliani libri IV. Opus practicum per concordantias philosophorum inter se discrepantium, tam ex antiquis, quam modernis philosophiae adeptae patribus mutuo conciliatis summo studio collectum, & novissima concinne methodo ita digestum, ut vel tyrones possint discernere, vegetabilium, animalium, mineralium praeparationes suppositatias sophisticasque a veris sive pro re medica, sive metallica, atque sic cavere sibi a vagabundis deceptoribus, imaginariis processibus & suarum pecuniarum dilapidatione.
Lipsiae: impensis Joannis Pauli Kraus, 1768.

2.
Prodromus libri secundi de Medicinis, vel potius dispositio libri quinti de materia et pr�paratione spiritus vini philosophici.
London, 1687.

My full description of the contents of the English edition is:-

Weidenfeld, Johannes Segerus.
Four books of Johannes Segerus Weidenfeld, Concerning the Secrets of the Adepts; or, Of the Use of Lully's Spirit of Wine: A practical work. With a very great Study Collected out of the Ancient as well as Modern Fathers of Adept Philosophy, Reconciled together, by Comparing them one with another, otherwise disagreeing, and in the newest Method so aptly digested, that even young Practitioners may be able to discern the Counterfeit or Sophistical Preparations of Animals, Vegetables and Minerals, whether for Medicines or Metals, from True; and so avoid Vagabond Impostors and Imaginary Processes, together with the Ruine of Estates...
London, printed by Will. Bonny, for Tho. Howkins in George-Yard in Lombard Street, MDCLXXXV. [1685]
[52] + 380 pages [pages 265-292 dropped.]

p[2] [License from Charles II.]
p[3] [Title page.]
p[5]-[6] Authori Sacrum. [Verse to the author by Albertus Otho Faber.]
p[7]-[14] [Dedicatory epistle.] To the Right Honourable Robert Boyle, A Chief Member of the Royal Society. [At end "J.S.W."]
p[15]-[32] To the Students of the more Secret Chymy.
p[33]-378 [New title page.] The First Book of Menstruums. Ripley, Cap. 2. Medulae Philos. Chym. We will here demonstrate the clear Practice, how such Menstruums as be Unctuous and Moist, Sulphureous, and Mercureal, well agreeing with the Nature of Metals, wherewith our Bodies are to be artificially dissolved, may be obtained. London, Printed for Tho. Howkins in George-Yard in Lombard-Street, 1685.
p[35] The Translator to the Reader. [At end "G. C."]
p[37]-[44] A Catalogue of the Menstruums. [Table of contents.]
p[45]-[52] The Preface.
p1-368 Of Vegetable Menstruums. [In 24 sections each describing a particular kind of menstruum, and each containing a number of recipes (150 in all) extracted from various alchemical writings.]
Simple Vegetable Menstruums made of Philosophical Wine only. - Simple Vegetable Menstruums made of the Spirit of Philosophical Wine, and the hottest Vegetables, Herbs, Flowers, Roots, etc. being Oyly. - Simple Vegetable Menstruums made of the Spirit of Philosophical Wine, and Oyly, Salts, or (such as can neither be called fixed nor volatile) hitherto called Essential Salts, such as are Sugar, Honey, Tartar of Common Wine, and other Vegetables. - Simple Vegetable Menstruums made of the Spirit of Philosophical Wine, and Volatile Salts, such as common Sal Armoniack, Salt of Blood, Urine, Soot, &c. - Simple Vegetable Menstruums made of the Spirit of Philosophical Wine, and the fixed Salts of Vegetables and Minerals not tinging. - Simple Vegetable Menstruums made of the Spirit and Tartar of Philosophical Wine. - Vegetable Menstruums compounded of the aforesaid Simple Menstruums. - Vegetable Menstruums compounded of Simple Vegetable Menstruums, and of common Argent Vive, or other Metals. - Vegetable Compounded Menstruums made of Simple Vegetable Menstruums, and Things tinging, being first fixed. - Vegetable Menstruums compounded made of Vegetable Menstruums compounded, and Metallick Bodies. - Vegetable compounded Mentruums graduated, made of the compounded Vegetable Menstruums, impregnated with the influences of Heaven and Earth. - Compounded Vegetable Menstruums most highly exalted, made of compounded Vegetable Menstruums graduated. - Simple Mineral Menstruums made of the Matter of Philosophical Wine only. - Simple Mineral Menstruums made of the acid or saline Essences of Salts. - Simple Mineral Menstruums made of the Spirit of Philosophical Wine, and Acid Spirits, as Aqua fortis, Spirit of Nitre, Spirit of Sulphur, Salt, &c. distilled Vinegar, &c. - Simple Mineral Menstruums made of Philosophical Vinegar, and Volatile Salts, as Common Sal Armoniack, Urine, &c. - Simple Mineral Menstruums made of Philosophical Vinegar, and fixed Salts not tinging, as well Vegetable as Mineral. - Simple Mineral Menstruums made of Vegetable Sal Harmoniack, and Acids not tinging. - Mineral Menstuums compounded of the Philosophers Spirit of Wine, and Acid Spirits tinging, Spirit of Vitriol, Butter of Antimony, &c. - Mineral Menstruums Compounded of the Spirit of Philosophical Wine, and other tinging things; Vitriol, Cinnabar, Antimony, Lapis Haematites, &c. - Compounded Mineral Menstruums of Simple Mineral Menstruums and Mercury, the rest of the Metals, and other Tinging Things. - Mineral Menstruums compounded of the Phil[o]sophers Vinegar, and other Simple Mineral Menstruums and Things tinging being first fixed. - Mineral Menstruums made of Mineral Menstruums compounded, and Metallick Bodies and other Tinging Things. - Mineral Menstruums compounded of Vegetable and Mineral Menstruums mix'd together.
p369-378 Epilogue.
p379 Errata.
p380 Books Printed for, and Sold by Tho Howkins in George-Yard near Lombard-Street.

There is a copy of the English edition in Glasgow University Library, University of Wisconsin Library, The Bibliotheca Philosophica Hermetica, and the British Library. You can easily get a microfilm from the British Libray. It takes about 4 months for them to make one for you. Costs would probably be about $200 to $300.

Hope this is of some help.

Adam McLean

Fri Mar 01 18:10:32 1996
Subject: 0368 A Lighter Moment

From: Clinton R. Armitage
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:30:10 -0500

Taken from:
>0280 A Lighter Moment
>
>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:52:42 +1100
Greetings from Alec Gathercole
using Petra's e-mail facility ([email protected])
>The exclusion of this caption distracts from the statements made in the
>conclusion about "Why all this secretness". It is necessary because so many
>dedicated people fail in their pursuit through starting too near the finish,
>expecting that they may gain their objective by force rather than by grace.
>We may yet decide to go back to the beginning, and check where we deviated
>and prepare again for the whole journey.
>***********************************************************************

A 20th Century Alchemist and one of the few who
have inspired me was George Washington Carver who worked
with the Animal, Vegetable and Mineral Kingdoms.
I briefly relate, from memory, three incidents which may help
demonstrate why he was successful in the Great Work:

You will recall that he lived and worked at a time when
a black person received little or no recognition by the
contemporary establishment.
On one occasion he was invited to Washington, DC for an
appearance before congress to explain his
accomplishments with the peanut et al. He debarked from
the train, bags in hand, and found a black porter
standing on the platform and offered his luggage to him.
The porter told him he could not help him as he was
waiting for an important scientist from Tuskegee. Mr.
Carver said nothing and continued on his way, bags in
hand. Congress was enthralled by his presentation and he
was given unlimited time to speak- something unheard of
at the time.
On another occasion he overheard a bystander say " that
toothless old man " could not possibly be the great
scientist whereupon Carver said: " I am not toothless,
they are right here in my pocket ". ( Could this be the
Art of Divine Concealment cloaked in the raiment of
genuine humility?).
On another occasion at Booker T. Washington in Tuskegee,
Alabama, where he taught and conducted his experiments,
he was working on an extended project with some
plantings located in a fenced off area. On more than one
occasion he awoke in the morning to find that the gate
had mysteriously been left open, cattle had gotten in
during the night and trampled the experiments. He
patiently started over. Finally, someone stood watch and
found that another black p things a bit
much.
< When Mr. Carver was told this he replied: " Whenever a
crab tries to climb out of the box other crabs reach up
and try to pull him back in ". ( Perhaps there are some
lessons in this regarding "inner circles" which often
bring down worthy presentations to advance humanity -
the Judas' ).

When the instrument, which is YOU and ME ,has been properly prepared tha way
is made passable and the required understanding simply falls into ones lap.
There is no secret. As the Christ said, "He who has eyes to see let him see,
he who has ears to hear, let him here- but they neither see nor hear". And
he DID tell us how to see and hear- as have others.

My love to you, Clint
[email protected]

-=-=-

Sat Mar 02 10:12:38 1996
Subject: Cathari text <--> Poimander

From: Rawn Clark
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:36:32 -0500

In reading Maury's outline of the Cathari text (thank you Maury!!!)
I couldn't help but notice the similarity to Libellus 1 of the Corpus
Hermeticum -- the "Divine Poimander (DP) of Hermes" (Walter Scott's
translation is the best IMO). Therein is also a description of the
essential Alchemical Process.

An interesting parallel exists between the Cathar's "Satan" and the
Poimander's "Mind the Maker" (MM). In the DP, MM is the "Son
of God" (God being "Life and Light", or All Mind); but "Man" (created
after MM) is also the "son of God" and is seen as "brother" to MM.

Man ascends to the realm of MM ("who was set over the region of fire")
and becomes creative in his brother's stead. Man creates the physical
"administrators" (7 planets) and then descends into "down-ward tending
Nature", revealing to her "the Beautiful form of God". In her thirst,
Nature embraces this beauteous form and reflects it "in the water and
its shadow on the earth", luring Man to dwell within/upon her.

Nature is initially created by God/Light, improved upon with the
assistance of her brother MM, and then completed with the assistance
of her youngest brother -- Man. So Nature has three stages:
1) created by Light;
2) improved by Light + MM;
3) completed by Light + MM + Man.

Light, MM, and Man are all obvious symbols for the different
stages of Our Fire. In the DP, Nature is the prima materia in
one sense; and the man who is hearing the Poimander's words,
represents the prima materia in another sense. The rhythmic
interplay between Poimander and this man, is very revealing!
Poimander himself, seems a symbol for both the Alchemist
and the higher Fire.

It seems that the essential Alchemical Process is described in
many ancient texts, and with the use of many different symbol
systems. For instance, the Process can clearly be seen in the
Hebrew of the Sepher Yetzirah, or in the life of Christ. I also
suspect it can be found in the religious culture of indigenous
Americans (definitely to be seen in that of the Hopi!), but I have
not sincerely investigated this conjecture. Certainly it is to be
found in Asian and north African texts.

:) Rawn Clark
1 Mar 96

Sat Mar 02 10:13:49 1996
Subject: Book Search - Johann Segerus Weidenfeld

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:28:44 -0600

>From: [email protected] wrote-->
>How do I get ahold of the writings of one Johann Segerus Weidenfeld???

*downloaded from the UT online catalog:

1 Weidenfeld, Johann Seger. / De secretis adeptorum / Johannis Segeri
Weidenfeld De secretis adeptorum, sive, De usu spiritus vini Lulliani
libr# / Londini 1975(1684)
MICROFILM WING REEL 523:3 Humanities Research Center USE IN LIBRARY
ONLY
AUTHOR: Weidenfeld, Johann Seger.
UNIFORM TITLE: De secretis adeptorum
TITLE: Johannis Segeri Weidenfeld De secretis adeptorum, sive, De usu
spiritus vini Lulliani libri IV : opus practicum per
concordantias philosophorum inter se discrepantium, tam ex
antiquis, quam modernis philosophiae adeptae patribus mutuo
conciliatis summo studio collectum, & novissima concinne
methodo ita digestum, ut vel tyrones possint discernere,
vegetabilium, animalium, mineralium praeparationes
supposititias sophisticasve a veris, sive pro re medica,
sive metallica, atque sic cavere sive a vagabundis
deceptoribus, imaginariis processibus & suarum pecuniarum
dilapidatione.
PUBLISHED: Londini : apud H. Hills, jun. et venales prostant apud Marcum
Pardoe ..., 1684.
DESCRIPTION: (40), 338, (1) p.
SERIES: Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 523:3.
NOTES: Errata: p. (1) at end.
Reproduction of original in Bodleian Library.
References: Wing W1252
References: Arber's Term cat. II 100
Microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mich. : University Microfilms, 1975. 1
microfilm reel ; 35 mm. (Early English books, 1641-1700 ;
523:3)
SUBJECTS: Alchemy--Early works to 1800.
Chemistry--Early works to 1800.
OTHER AUTHORS: Hollandus, Johan Isaac, 15th cent.
Faber, Albert Otto, 1612-1684.
OTHER TITLES: De usu spiritus vini Lulliani libri IV.
OCLC NUMBER: 12054617

2 Weidenfeld, Johann Seger. / De secretis adeptorum. English / Four books
of Johannes Segerus Weidenfeld concerning the secrets of the adepts,
or, of the# / London 1978(1685)
MICROFILM WING REEL 906:6 Humanities Research Center USE IN LIBRARY
ONLY
AUTHOR: Weidenfeld, Johann Seger.
UNIFORM TITLE: De secretis adeptorum. English
TITLE: Four books of Johannes Segerus Weidenfeld : concerning the
secrets of the adepts, or, of the use of Lully's spirit of
wine : a practical work, with very great study collected out
of the ancient as well as modern fathers of adept philosophy
: reconciled together by comparing them one with another,
otherwise disagreeing, and in the newest method so aptly
digested, that even young practitioners may be able to
discern the counterfeit or sophistical preparations of
animals, vegetables and minerals, whether for medicines or
metals, from true, and so avoid vagabond imposters, and
imaginary processes, together with the ruine of estates.
PUBLISHED: London : Printed by Will. Bonny, for Tho. Howkins ..., 1685.
DESCRIPTION: (51), 380 p.
SERIES: Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 906:6.
NOTES: Reproduction of original in Huntington Library.
Errata: p. (379)
References: Wing W1253
Microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mich. : University Microfilms
International, 1978. 1 microfilm reel ; 35 mm. (Early
English books, 1641-1700 ; 906:6)
SUBJECTS: Alchemy
OCLC NUMBER: 12334194

Sun Mar 03 16:13:22 1996
Subject: 0371 Taoist Pearls

From: Vic Stevens
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:32:50 -0500

Hooray, finally some Chinese alchemy here! I was begining to wonder if
anyone knew that alchemy existed long before the middle ages in Europe. And
another thing-isn't there any magic around here? 'Can't have alchemy without
magic, else it's just chemistry.

Sun Mar 03 16:13:32 1996
Subject: 0372 Book Search - Johann Segerus Weidenfeld

From: Russ House
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 20:24:55 -0500

Dear Rawn,

I had the good fortune to receive a photocopy of an edition of Weidenfeld's
book several years ago. I sent it to Roger Kessinger of Kessinger
publishing who has kept this little treasure in print. Roger's email
address is listed on the Alchemy Forum under Publishers. I regret not
having the email address on hand at the moment. At the same time I sent him
Glaser's "Complete Chymist" dated 1677, which he reprinted. It is also of
value.

I think that Weidenfeld's book is of tremendous value. It has been said
that the R+C lodges of his day immediately bought up all copies of his book
to prevent.the information from becoming accessable to the public.

Regards,

Russ House

Sun Mar 03 16:14:15 1996
Subject: 0373 Hudsons White Powder Gold RE: Steve Rosen

From: simeon
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 19:11 MST

From Steve's message:

My reponse:

Total agreement. I used the term atomic in a very general sense, meant to
indicate that the vibration of matter (atomic, sub atomic et al) was
responsible for the etheric sounds being emitted. Also, there have been
plenty of scientific measurements of these types of sound energies. The
Meissner field of superconductors mentioned in David Hudsons research
information is an example. While that reseach was not speaking directly of
sound per se, it was measurind an energy field generated by the
superconductive properties of the matter involved which was a function of
that sound energy emission. The energy field has a frequency of emission,
although I'm not certain whether or not they actually measured that
component. So as Hudson related that the Meissner field of superconductors
equated to the human auric field which was being generated by the
superconductive properties inherent within the human biosystem, then by
default the phenomena of frequency emissions generated at the level of
atomic - subatomic particle spin activity is a component of the 'spiritual'
reality. Then of course all matter is part of the spiritual reality, it is
only human thought concepts that nave created any separation between the two.

Love and Blessings,
Simeon Nartoomid
Crest In The Stone
Mystery School
[email protected]

Sun Mar 03 16:14:09 1996
Subject: 0374 alchemy and heresy

From: Maury
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 21:14:16 -0500

On 29 Feb 1996, Jon wrote:

>>Please note i have no brief for the church here, but i just want to know of
the evidence for the position that *Alchemy* was considered *heretical* by
the authorities before the great witch burnings and persecutions of the post
reformation period.<<

Jon, LeGrand, George, and others interested....

Just time for a short reply. FYI: Ordinations against alchemy may be found
in Papal Decretal _Extravagantis_ of John XXII in 1317. See J. R.
Partington, "Albertus Magnus on Alchemy," *Ambix,* I:1, 1937. Partington
states that "the study and practice of alchemy were forbidden several times
to the Franciscans in the period 1272-1323 ... and to the Dominicans between
1273 and 1313 ... with penalities increasing from imprisonment to
excommunication, the scandal going on, it is said, in spite of severe
prohibitions."

I report this for informational purposes only. I don't feel this fully
addresses this complex issue. I think one would have to examine at the very
minimum: (1) the perspective the alchemists had themselves, i.e., whether
they considered themselves heretical or not; (2) the role of the so-called
Christian interpretation of alchemistic thought would have to be
investigated, i.e., understanding it as an attempt at a spiritualization of
chthonic forces (I see in alchemy the attempt at a different solution, namely
to bring about the union of opposites which is lacking in the historical
Christian doctrine); and (3) examining the encoding of heretical ideas within
the alchemical literature itself. For example, the text that accompanies the
17th figure of the *Rosarium,* the _Aenigma Regis_, which refers to the final
production of the lapis in the form of the crowned hermaphrodite. The verse
is as follows:

"Here now is born the emperor of all honor
Than whom there cannot be born any higher,
Neither by art nor by the work of nature
Out of the womb of any living creature.
Philosophers speak of him as their son
And everything they do by him is done."

Here it looks as if the alchemists had the idea that the Son, who, according
to classical and Christian tradition, dwells eternally in the Father and
reveals himself as God's gift to humankind, was something that man could
produce out of his own nature, _deo concedente_. The hersey of this idea is
obvious.

Maury

Sun Mar 03 16:14:24 1996
Subject: 0375 Atwood, Eckartshausen & Kunkin

From: Vic Stevens
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 18:48:43 -0500

Dear Logodox:

In a message dated 96-03-01 13:12:39 EST, you write:

>" Guess I'm gonna have to develop the "Reading of the Akasa" so I can go
back in time >like shambala master (Kwai Chang Cain) and observe this great
Lady (Ha ha, I wish)."

I'm on the alchemy list, and saw your recent post "Atwood, Eckartshausen &
Kunkin".

This past August ('95), I took a 2-day seminar to learn to read the Akashic
record. This is a very obscure methodology. There are few practitioners.
There is no documentation, no 'cult', no dogma associated with the
technique.

The technique is primarily a prayer which creates a transition into 'reading
mode' (my words). You read with your eyes wide open. I came upon it quite
accidentally. An acquaintance told me about a good 'psychic', who read your
Akashic records. Being inclined to Hermetics and Kabbalah, and [then]
planning to start my own business, I went to see her. Not knowing at all
about her method, and actually somewhat skeptical, I was surprised to feel a
strong dimensional shift during our session. After an insightful reading,
she told me she would be teaching the method.

I learned to read for myself and others. I also learned it is bad karmic
news to read for others without their express permission. After 30 days with
this knowledge, I can not solicit readings.

The basic method is taught purely for inquiry. However, I have taken it to
task for the purpose of manipulating my Akasha for personal reasons.
Applying the concept that my ancestral guardian 'angels' are guiding my view
into the Akasha, I have attempted to establish a dialog with them, and have
received some interesting information and results. I have never tried it to
evoke a famous dead peson (bec. I view evocation as a rite unto itself), but
you've given me the idea.

I can not teach you the method. But, if you are interested, I can ask my
teacher if there is a means for you to learn it. I live in a suburb of
Chicago. My teacher is in Evanston, Illlinois.

I've mentioned this method to some of my 'magical' friends. No one else has
expressed an interest in learning to do this. I find it a constructive
outlet, very much in tune with my interest in Hermetics and Kabbalah. It's
origins are unexpected. My teacher learned it from an elderly woman, who
learned it from a man who learned it from a Mayan Indian woman in Mexico City
in 1950. As I said, there is no documentation, no books to read. It's
strictly 'word of mouth' (but not free!)'. RSVP if you'd like to discuss
this.

Kindest regards,
Victoria

Sun Mar 03 16:14:31 1996
Subject: 0376 Call for papers: The World Soul and the Soul of the World

Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 20:50:54 -0500
From: David Fideler

"The World Soul and the Soul of the World: Philosophy, Cosmos, and Culture"

The ALEXANDRIA journal has been invited to organize a session on "The World
Soul and the Soul of the World" for the 15th Annual Conference on Global
and Multicultural Dimensions of Ancient and Medieval Philosophy and Social
Thought which will be held October 25�27, 1996 at the State University of
New York, Binghamton. All conference sessions are open to the public free
of charge. The conference takes a multicultural approach and covers
Indigenous, Jewish, Africana, Greek, Christian, Islamic, and East Asian
traditions.

We are especially interested in receiving papers that address in some way
the relationships between philosophy, cosmos, and culture. Papers can
address historical topics or contemporary issues in philosophy, ethics,
ecology, cosmology, or the social sciences.

Papers do not have to address the topic of the World Soul per se, but they
must deal with the theme of "philosophy and the world" ("world" can also
mean "society") or "philosophy and the cosmos." "Philosophy" can be broadly
defined. Because the conference focuses on ancient and medieval philosophy,
papers touching upon those areas will be given preference.

Individuals interested in presenting papers should contact us with
proposals by May 1, 1996. Proposals should include a title, one page
abstract, your name, address, and academic affiliation.

Contact:

David Fideler, Editor
Alexandria
PO Box 6114
Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516

Phone/Fax: (616) 456-5740
E-mail: [email protected]

Please feel free to forward this announcement to anyone who might be interested.

Sun Mar 03 16:14:46 1996
Subject: 0377 Johannes Segerus Weidenfeld

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 02 Mar 96 19:30:39 EST

Adam McLean has very well described the writings of Weidenfeld. Indeed it seems
to be escaped him, that the English version of "Concerning the secrets of the
adepts" is cheaper to get.

Under the number ISBN 1-56459-353-3 the book newly had been published by
"Kessinger Publishing Company, P. O. Box 160, Kila, MT 59920." The quality of
this edition could be better of course. However the entire text is readable and
complete. I have compared important places of the book with the Latin original
text. Thereby I ascertained, that the English translation very exactly records
the sense of the original text.

There presumably is no alchemical work, which is so informative for the
practitioner of the royal art!

Lapis

Sun Mar 03 16:14:58 1996
Subject: 0378 FRENCH: Un Adepte ? -Reply

From: Gilbert Arnold
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 15:03:28 -0500

Cher Monsieur Michel Martineau,

Meme si j'ai accompli les travaux cites ci-dessous,

>Alors dites-moi, EN TERMES PRATIQUES, qu'avez a offrir a un praticien
>qui a deja fait la plupart des travaux decrits dans le Char Triomphal et le
>dernier Testament ? Glaser et Glauber ? Avez vous prepare avec succes
>le circule mineur d'Urbiger ?
>

ET EN VUE DE VOTRE REPONSE:

"Mon cher Monsieur Gilbert Arnold, comme je m'apercoie que vous etes un
praticien tres avance, vous etes deja un adepte."

Je vous repond avec respect,

JE NE ME CONSIDERE PAS UN ADEPTE. Evidemment, les definitions
different. Alors, avant de d'appeler quelqu'un Maitre ou autre titre, visitez
son laboratoire.

Je pense que L'Adepte est dans le coeur de tout praticien sincere de
l'Alchimie; c'est comme un archetype, dans le sens que Yung y donnerais.

Benedictions,

+Gilbert

Sun Mar 03 16:15:06 1996
Subject: 0379 Hidden practice in Goethe's Faust?

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 02 Mar 96 19:30:31 EST

Dear Petra,

think about the law of polarity: "Everything is dual; everything has poles;
everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites
are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are
but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled. " The Kybalion.

Applied to alchemy: There is an inner and an outer alchemy. There is theory and
practice. Both are identical in their nature, but different in their degree.
However the inner alchemy is only the half truth, just as the practical alchemy
is not everything. First if theory and practice come together emerges what real
alchemy is. Thus there is no true inner alchemy without practice, like it gives
no true practice without the inner understanding of the connections. True
alchemy proves itself both in the interior as well as in the exterior. In the
interior it corresponds to the so-called mental rebirth, in the outer to the
concrete philosopher's stone.

Who only pursues one side under neglect of the other disregards the law. Thus
there are many theorists in alchemy, who of course may beautifully and
fascinatingly write about alchemy, but never have attained a right
understanding. Just as there are such, who digest and cook in their flasks, but
never will arrive at the desired goal, because they do not understand what they
do.

You write:
>I had hoped you could help me in the chemistry of things, because in this field
I am still a novice, but it seems I am on my own again. I still" believe "the"
Chemical "Opus is hidden in the personified drama of Goethes Faust, just like in
his" Wahlverwandtschaften".<

If you believe that the chemical work is hidden in the personified drama, so you
are mistaken. The drama can do embody inwardly experienced important stadiums of
the outer work. The real materials does it not describe! The great work is not
so simple as one may wish for. Even if the alchemists write their work be simple
and laborious - a children's game and women's trade - so this is only correct in
part. If one knows the processes, so many steps are simple and often laborious.
The whole work is however more than that. The cited statement of the alchemists
counts only for partial processes of the great work.

If you still are a novice in the chemistry of the things, so you should change
this your condition as soon as possible. Begin with the practice! Then soon you
will see, that there is actually little concealed in Goethe's Faust which may
help on in reality.

An important principle of the alchemists is: Examine and then decide. Without
practical experience you can not understand my appraisal of the poetry. That's
no use, if you believe something. You must learn through experience, so that you
know, how it is in reality.

You write:
>Could you say that regarding the tinctures you are making?<

My answer is yes. Learn to understand using the preparation of spagyric essences
from plants how our art can release unexpected energies from matter. Regularly
take in such tinctures and the insights in the connections will reveal
themselves also to you. The plant alchemy is a safe and harmless lead-in in the
practical alchemy.

With best wishes
Lapis

Sun Mar 03 16:15:20 1996
Subject: 0380 The Mysterium

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 16:31:32 +1100

Maury, I like to pick up the topic where you have left it...
If we speak of "freedom", the word would not mean anything to the person
who has never experienced it. It is as if we would talk about a cart-box
without a content, empty letters. Only by experience does the word "freedom"
become alive. So it is with "The Mysterium", once experienced, it is raised
into consciousness, and it truly becomes our own. No longer is it an empty
word, nor does it remain a mystery. The question is: Why do we no longer
experience the Mystery? Because our "Ego" (intellect) functioning in the
here and now wants it otherwise. It turns its back to it, and it never
becomes experience. That's why the books remain books with seven seals, and
the Alchemist's symbolic language forever stays a riddle of Oedipus.

In the Eleusian Fields, people still EXPERIENCED an encounter of a second
kind (nature), an encounter with a god. One could also describe it as an
IMMACULOUS CONCEPTION OF THE SOUL, which can only be experienced on a higher
level (one "octave" up, leaving the material world). The Alchemists say: The
rest is WOMAN'S WORK , and CHILD PLAY, obviously because TO GIVE BIRTH is a
woman's work, and the outcome is a child that by nature plays. One could
also call this event "Die Auferstehung des Geistes" (the resurrection of
spirit), i.e. "Die Losloesung des Geistes von der Physis" (the liberation of
spirit from the physical world), "Die Geistige Neugeburt" (re-birth of spirit).

The problem with "modern" man is (the word "modern", by the way, in German
has a second meaning, namely "to rot", "to decompose"), that he does not
reach the higher level, he makes hold at the THRESHOLD, and doesn't dare to
cross. It would mean to climb Mount Purgatory and develop virtues. Peggy's
PEARL would be the reward = THE WHITE STONE OF THE PHILOSOPHERS = PURITY,
INNOCENCE, i.e. to be free of sins again, after having whitewashed one's
linen (namely to be IMMACULATE FOR SUCH A CONCEPTION). On top of Mount
Purgatory Beatrice is waiting for Dante. By that time Dante would have
developed the virtue of virtues, which is "LOVE". The reward is THE RED
STONE OF THE PHILOSOPHERS. Only here, on that level can the true CHEMICAL
WEDDING take place, the wedding of the brother/sister pair, united in and by
LOVE.

In our days, the only way to recognise one's LOVE, is to heed the "projected
picture" of one's other half, the "picture" Tamino is given of Tamina in
"The Magic Flute", the "picture" in Wagner's "Flying Dutchman" , "das
Luftgebild" (the Imago) in Goethe's Marienbader Elegie, and there are many
other examples...This LOVE, however, is not coming to get us, WE have to
climb the mountain to attain it, i.e. reach the higher level. In Peggy's
example: >...he enspelled the serpent, seized the Pearl and cast off his old
garments...and re-attained the robes of glory...<
If we would really meet the man or woman of our life on whom our "projected"
picture fits, how many of us would let go of "lower" sexuality (the
serpent), and divorce one's first husband/wife whom one does not love any
more, and go and marry the other? Unfortunately such "dynamic" encounter
(which C.G. Jung described in his "Psychology of the Transference") for the
best of times we explain away, regard it a nuisance, and even an illness,
not realising that the actual illness is caused by the self inflicted
SEPARATION, which keeps the lovers apart. SCHIZOPHRENIA sets in (the desease
of our time), THE WOUND THAT CANNOT BE HEALED, THE WALL, THE GAP, THE CHASM
BETWEEN THE LOVERS...when such sacred moment of "Love at first sight" is
ignored. It is the dilemma of our time that the cornerstone of the builders
is rejected. We rather cling to our false MARRIAGES OF DEATH, living a false
marality, and committing adultery with the very man/woman we may have
married 20 years ago, but do not love today. BY DECEIVING THE HIGHER,
HEAVENLY LOVE (bond = chemical wedding) we commit adultery, no matter the
interpretations of our earthly laws. "Ehebruch "= breaking the heavenly
bond, by not recognising one's Lady Soul/Animus leads to breakdown, death ,
and the nigredo...
With the above said, a new light is also cast on Chapter 5, Vers 30 in the
Gospel of Matthew: "If your right hand causes you to sin (in other words, if
you don't love your partner with all your heart), cut it off and throw it
away! THIS IS DIVORCE!" (Referring to a morally unsound marriage). "It is
much better for you to lose one of your limbs (one of the pair in this
unsound marriage) than to have your whole body (the two in a wrong marriage)
go to hell." (No spiritual ascent would be possible for both of them if
they stayed together).

Mark the women of your forum!

Sun Mar 03 20:41:11 1996
Subject: 0381 Weidenfeld Book Search

From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 14:44:46 -0500

Thank you all very much for your assistance!

This Forum is a wonderful resource...I am so very thankful
to you all and to Divine Providence who shines forth from
your faces with glee!

Best to you,
:) Rawn Clark
3 Mar 96

Sun Mar 03 22:26:44 1996
Subject: 0382 Quinton's Plasma

From: eximer
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 13:00:10 -0800

This is general request for information on the 19th century
German alchemist by the name of John(?) Quinton.
His most most notable contribution was the creation of
Quinton's plasma, which has essentially the saline
infusion currently in use by modern medicine.

His least noted attribute is the alleged connection that
Mary Shelly's Frankenstein was actually an autobiographical
expose of the man with respect to one of his more notorious
forays.

Sun Mar 03 22:26:56 1996
Subject: 0383 Hidden practice in Goethe's Faust?

From: Rawn Clark
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 16:06:43 -0500

In a message dated 96-03-03 13:17:38 EST, you write:

>Who only pursues one side under neglect of the other
>disregards the law. Thus there are many theorists in
>alchemy, who of course may beautifully and fascinatingly
> write about alchemy, but never have attained a right
>understanding. Just as there are such, who digest and
>cook in their flasks, but never will arrive at the desired
>goal, because they do not understand what they do.
>
>

Dear Lapis,

While I agree with what you say in this post, and understand
what you mean, I also think you have limited your perspective
(in the above paragraph) somewhat. The Path to Wisdom is
long, and is utterly unique to each individual. We all pass
through stages of unfolding, plateaus of understanding...steps
if you will, that *inevitably* and eventually lead us to our Goal.
We learn from success AND error. Though for a time we might
focus on one pole of this continuum, it is inevitable that we will
each learn in our own time and in our own way from this error,
and come to envelope the broader approach.

To know a thing so powerfully and then witness another's
confusion as they reach for the same knowing, is a difficult test.
Our heart's inclination is to reach out and point to the clear errors,
to help in any way we can. But this is best served if it be balanced
with a deep respect for the other individual's own unique path, and
a complete non-atachment to their adopting our view. In this way,
you become a participant in Divine Providence's plan for the individual,
as contrasted with acting in disregard for another's personal karma
(karma being a thing no one can acurately "judge" as regards another).

It is clear that you know all this, but the strident nature of your
wording in the quoted paragraph obscures your intention, and perhaps
serves a purpose contrary to the one in your heart. Please heed
these words sir. I write them with the utmost respect, as you know,
and from the midst of my own unfolding...i.e. personal experience. ;)

Best to you!
:) Rawn Clark
3-3-96

PS: I HIGHLY recommend (Lapis) Beat Krummenacher's book
"Spagyric Tinctures - Tradition, Preparation and Usage" to the
Forum! It's available through Archives Press in the USA.

Wed Mar 06 20:59:16 1996
Subject: Long silence on the Alchemy Forum

My apologies for the long silence on the forum. I have been in London from Monday to Wednesday doing some research, and took my laptop computer and modem in order to download the messages and post them back onto the forum. However, I just could not manage to get the system to work with the internal telephone exchange of the place I was staying in. I tried everything I knew but the modem just would not ring out to my internet number.
Now I am back home there should be a surge of mail over the next few hours as I download the messages and upload them to the forum.
If anyone has any experience of how to configure login scripts using Trumpet Winsock to deal with internal telephone exchanges, please get in touch.

With my apologies for three days silence,

Adam McLean

Wed Mar 06 21:21:58 1996
Subject: 0384 The Hidden Practice of Goeth

From: Clinton R. Armitage
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:56:19 -0500

>>Who only pursues one side under neglect of the other
>>disregards the law. Thus there are many theorists in
>>alchemy, who of course may beautifully and fascinatingly
>> write about alchemy, but never have attained a right
>>understanding. Just as there are such, who digest and
>>cook in their flasks, but never will arrive at the desired
>>goal, because they do not understand what they do.
>>

It is my hope that the Forum will continue the thread on
" The Hidden Practice of Goeth " and that the Subject
matter will be handled with the utmost respect, not
allowing the personality impressions of the participants
to take us off on some tangent so that we loose the
creative flow taking place. There is a revelation just
around the corner which has tremendous implications in
our lives and pertains to both our inner and outer
selves, to theory and practice.

Let us not forget that the forum itself exists as an
entity in the realm of energy. Its creative potential-
to take us on to new horizons exists beyond our wildest
imaginings as we each bring to it the unique sum total
of our individual selves. It is a fact as yet unborn in
this mother-father we call the internet. To allow that
revelation to become available to our conscious selves on
a group basis will be infinitely rewarding.

To those of us who may feel a bit insecure as we grope
for tangibles I can only wish that through patience we
may, together, be able to partake of an expansion of
consciousness-- the most rewarding of all soul food.

Wed Mar 06 21:22:07 1996
Subject: 0385 Taoist Pearls

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:17:07 -0600

>From: Vic Stevens-->
>Hooray, finally some Chinese alchemy here! I was begining to wonder if
>anyone knew that alchemy existed long before the middle ages in Europe.
*Vic, I guess you're new to the list! Since I've been on, the subject of
Chinese alchemy has indeed come up a few times, most recently connected to
the subject of ingesting gold (a Chinese practice).
*but it takes people to post pieces on the subject to get the forum to
discuss whatever topic one has in mind

>And
>another thing-isn't there any magic around here? 'Can't have alchemy without
>magic, else it's just chemistry.

*you may get an argument from a few on this; but this takes effort on the
part of those who are interested. So how do you mean "magic"?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Wed Mar 06 21:22:22 1996
Subject: 0386 Book Search - Johann Segerus Weidenfeld

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:24:34 -0800

On Mar 3, 4:19pm, Alchemy forum wrote:

> From: Russ House
>>
> I think that Weidenfeld's book is of tremendous value. It has been said
> that the R+C lodges of his day immediately bought up all copies of his book
> to prevent.the information from becoming accessable to the public.
>

Hi Russ

for ages i've wanted to know Who said this and where.....

(tis a good book though)

jon

Wed Mar 06 21:22:40 1996
Subject: 0387 crocodiles

From: Jane E. Jenkins
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 10:26:57 -0600 (CST)

Alchemy Forum Members,
I am still baffled by the presence of stuffed crocodiles hanging in
apothecary/alchemical laboratories. What were they used for? What was the
symbolism attached to them? Any help in my search for more info would be
greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
[email protected]

Wed Mar 06 21:22:51 1996
Subject: 0388 Matter and Energy and Alchemy

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 11:32:19 -0500 (EST)

Please excuse me for my lack of scientific terms and knowledge.
I am not a scientist. I am trying to figure something out that
I think relates to alchemy.

The universe and all it contains, I have read, is composed of
either energy or matter. Matter can turn into energy, for
example, when I put gas in my truck I can then drive it a
distance. Energy turning into matter seems less common to
me. When does that occur? Can anyone give me examples? It
must happen regulary under my nose and I fear I'm overlooking
something obvious.

Well, back to the problem of matter being turned to energy, for
now. When I drive my truck the gas (matter) is turned into
energy and my truck moves. However, when my truck stops I
look at what the universe has gained and lost. The universe
has lost both the gas (matter) it took to move my truck and
the energy (motion) that resulted. The energy is no more. It
is spent. It is in the past. Instead the universe has my truck,
moved a few miles. Is the universe better off? What benefit is there
to the universe that my truck is in a different position, when
energy is lost forever. (It is lost forever, isn't it?) So it
seems to me that during the exchange of matter to energy the
universe experiences a loss.

Perhaps a similar loss happens within our bodies, which are always
converting matter to energy. I eat food and breathe and this
gives me the energy to walk a mile. The food and air comes from
outside my body's system, so unlike the universe, I do not care
that it is turned to energy for my walk, and used up -- it wasn't
part of me to start with. But I have lost more than the food. My
body now must regenerate tissues that were worn during the walk,
using food and air to fuel the repairs. But the tissues (unlike
the food and air) are part of my body's system, and if they are
not fully and completely regenerated then I should be concerned.
It seems to me very possible that they do sustain a loss (like the
universe lost energy when I drove my truck) because otherwise
people would live forever. So after regeneration they are not
entirely "as they were before." Over time this deficit accumulates
and leads to weaknesses in the body. For example, the cells may not
reproduce correctly (cancer). Disease and decay set in.

Perhaps in alchemy the body is supplemented in an extraordinary way,
takes in energies that people do not ordinarily take in, AND CONVERTS
THE ENERGY TO MATTER (bodily tissue), so that the body's system does
not go into a "deficit" and then disease and decay. This also gives an
example of energy being turned to matter (subtle energies being incor-
porated into the bodily tissue), where I could think of no examples
before.

So, what is it alchemists ingest to supplement and fortify their
bodies? It can't be merely food (matter), or a good diet alone would
do the trick. It must be energy, captured somehow. What kind of
energy and how to find it? How is it captured? Captured in
food and drink? Captured via breathing? Captured via sexual
exchanges? Captured via meditation? Could it be that bodily
improvements are a secondary (but nice nonetheless) effect and the
primary purpose is to raise vibrations on a spiritual level?

So, are my theories (above) of value in regard to alchemy, or
irrelevant, or idiotic or what?

Regards,

- Peggy -

PS: Still trying to figure out the point of it all and what
occurs.

Wed Mar 06 21:23:32 1996
Subject: 0389 alchemy and heresy

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:56:26 -0800

On Mar 3, 4:19pm, Alchemy forum wrote:

> From: Maury
>
> Jon, LeGrand, George, and others interested....
>
> Just time for a short reply. FYI: Ordinations against alchemy may be found
> in Papal Decretal _Extravagantis_ of John XXII in 1317. See J. R.
> Partington, "Albertus Magnus on Alchemy," *Ambix,* I:1, 1937. Partington
> states that "the study and practice of alchemy were forbidden several times
> to the Franciscans in the period 1272-1323 ... and to the Dominicans between
> 1273 and 1313 ... with penalities increasing from imprisonment to
> excommunication, the scandal going on, it is said, in spite of severe
> prohibitions."

Indeed this is true- the notable thing about the decree of john XIII is that it
concentrates souly on the making of gold, of passing of bad coinage and so on
the punishments being fining, branding, imprisonment and so on- the punishments
for 'social' crimes not theological ones.

When i first mentioned the forbidding of alchemy by the church i asked whether
anyone knew about these bannings among the franciscans and dominicans and the
reasons for them as i only know the details for later bannings of alchemy in
british monasteries and there it was appears to be almost entirely for reasons
of monastic discipline and overspending the monasteries money- again *not* for
heresey.
>
> I report this for informational purposes only. I don't feel this fully
> addresses this complex issue. I think one would have to examine at the very
> minimum: (1) the perspective the alchemists had themselves, i.e., whether
> they considered themselves heretical or not;

yes i agree- this then brings up the question of why not try and hide it? why
attribute texts to known heretics etc....

The possibility of heresey within alchemical texts seems obvious to us- a little
compounded by considering texts from different periods and different parts of
europe as one tradition alone- and it should be remebered that there was lots
of theological arguement within christendom- acceptability was not that
monolithic at this time, more of a contest.
But the problem remains- did the church, before the reformation *consider* these
alchemical writings heretical or not?

(Was the *Index* of prohibited books introduced during the council of Trent (ie
c.1540)?- if someone knows of a good history of this, or has access to early
copies we could check to see if *any* alchemical books are on it- though of
course this is post reformation, but if there are *non* then it has to be
significant)

I am not an expert on the history of witchcraft, (and i apologise for being too
busy to check this up now- but i will try to do so later) but i vaguely remember
that before the Bull of Innocent VIII (c.1480) the church distinguished between
magia and malificia [spelling?] (ie 'magic' and 'magic used with criminal
intent'), and that early in the 'middle ages' malificia was considered a
'social' crime rather than a heresy and that magia, providing it didn't involve
direct invocations of the devil or other evil spirits, was ok. What happened in
the late 1400's was the association of all popular magic with the devil and
hence with malificia and heresy.

I suspect again that non popular ritual magics and alchemies were condemned
later, after the reformation when intellectuals outside the church were
percieved as threats by the church (and here i should emphasise that by church i
am here refering to the dominant religion, protestant or catholic, in its
particular area of power) and thus their activities could be heretical rather
than intellectual.

jon

Wed Mar 06 21:23:40 1996
Subject: 0390 Conversion of energy to matter

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 12:01:06 -0500 (EST)

I mentioned in my last post that I could not think of an example
of energy being converted to matter (though I knew I was missing
something very obvious).

Whack!

The sun's energy is converted to matter via plants and the plants
nourish the animals. All life on the planet relies on the sun.

Carbon is from the sun, right? What is meant by us being carbon
based? (I've heard that said.) What % of our bodies is carbon,
the element of the sun? What does that mean?

Also, are there any other examples of energy being converted to
matter, or is this the only one?

Thanks,

- Peggy -

Wed Mar 06 21:23:48 1996
Subject: 0391 Newton's Alchemy

From: Manwing
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 12:30:36 -0500
X-To: [email protected]

I am trying to locate a book: The Foundations of Newton's Alchemy or "The
Hunting of the Greene Lyon" by Betty Jo Teeter (B.J.T.) Dobbs (Cambridge,
1975). I have had several local book-finding services trying to locate a
copy but without any luck. I would appreciate any leads. Thanks.

Wed Mar 06 21:23:57 1996
Subject: 0392 Taoist Pearls

From: John Obrien
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:06:43 -0600 (CST)

> From: Vic Stevens
> Hooray, finally some Chinese alchemy here! I was begining to wonder if
> anyone knew that alchemy existed long before the middle ages in Europe. And
> another thing-isn't there any magic around here? 'Can't have alchemy without
> magic, else it's just chemistry.
> -=-=-
Magic = Any significantly advanced technology.

As for Chinese/oriental Alchemy, I have several commentaries on it.
A book called _Alchemy in the East_ covers some of it pretty well.
Another one called _Science & Technology in Medieval India_ covers the
Mid-east.

Wed Mar 06 21:24:06 1996
Subject: 0393 ritual and alchemy

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:46:09 -0600

Just wondering since someone recently had said "where's the magic in
alchemy" if anyone out there conductstheir lab work as a ritual
(consciously or unconsciously)?

Wed Mar 06 21:24:22 1996
Subject: 0394 Hidden practice in Goethe's Faust

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 05 Mar 96 18:28:06 EST

Dear Rawn,

I wrote:
>Who only pursues one side under neglect of the other disregards the law. Thus
there are many theorists in alchemy, who of course may beautifully and
fascinatingly write about alchemy, but never have attained a right
understanding. Just as there are such, who digest and cook in their flasks, but
never will arrive at the desired goal, because they do not understand what they
do.<

You admonished:
>To know a thing so powerfully and then witness another's confusion as they
reach for the same knowing, is a difficult test. Our heart's inclination is to
reach out and point to the clear errors, to help in any way we can. But this is
best served if it be balanced with a deep respect for the other individual's own
unique path, and a complete non-atachment to their adopting our view.<

You are right. The choice of words may perhaps achieve an effect, which is not
intended. With the whole message I wanted to bring Petra to consider the
possibility, that Goethe has a slighter meaning in alchemy, as many suppose.
This knowledge can only be gained however, if one clearly opposes the practical
aspects of the alchemy to the theoretical considerations.

If I completely softly talk or write about it in the way: Perhaps it would be
good once to think about the possibility, that there really is a functioning
practical alchemy. Goethe has had only very slight experiences in reality. Thus
is little probable, that Goethe in his Faust has symbolically described the
practice. But it could be, that he has exclusively reported on inner
experiences. If we deal with the Faust gaining from it practical advices, all
trouble is futile.

The content of this formulation corresponds to the content of my original
message. With a large difference. Who is fixed on Goethe's poetry, will hardly
be brought by a gentle formulation to see the things by an other side. He will
think perhaps: Well, could be possible. However I have no reason to examine my
opinion and possibly to revise it.

The more severe formulation, which definitely never intended an injury of the
feeling or the personal opinion of Petra has one advantage. Admittedly the
formulation is direct and more powerful. It consciously demands in an aggressive
way for defense. I suppose, that a such formulation unfolds a larger effect.
Because it directly is felt and must churn, the own attitude is confused. One
must deal with again bringing order in the confusion. One can not simply get rid
of the other opinion. One is forced to exactly consider, whether a revision of
the own views is necessary at most, or whether one can get on with things again,
as if nothing would have happened.

Consider nature: If a heavy stone stands in a way, so it will not be to be
moved, if one softly touches it or gently speaks to it. One already must give it
one strengthen push, so that it again releases the way. Also the nature uses
beside gentle strong methods to pursue their goals. Equate the stone in the
parable with a boged down opinion, the way with the personal development.
Sometimes it needs larger powers to clear out of the way a view hindering the
way of thinking.

For Petra: Consider the symbolic push well-intentioned. If you are as always
convinced that in Goethe's Faust the practice be hidden, so you need not at all
to defend yourself. Perhaps my contrary view is wrong. If the push has caused
however, that you thoroughly think about the whole matter again, so the purpose
of my message is fulfilled. My message only wanted to set you thinking, to which
I consciously got rolling larger powers. I respect Goethe as a great poet. For
me however he has been never an important alchemist. If I would like to
experience poetry, so I can go to Goethe. If I would like to progress in
alchemy, so I choose other authors.

I hope having clarified the situation somewhat with this in mind. My remarks
were not evilly meant at any rate.

With my best wishes
Lapis

Wed Mar 06 21:24:34 1996
Subject: 0395 Albigeois & alchemy

From: Patrick J. Smith
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 19:16:33 -0700

My interest was recently caught by the following lines from one of
Maury's posts:

> ...The plough has stood for man's mastery over the earth, wherever man
> ploughs, he has wrested a patch of soil from the primal state and put
> it to his own use...

I've been interested in similar myths and ideas of man imposing his
order on the primeval earth, as indicated, for instance, in the
following material, abstracted in part from `Dragons,' (Time-Life
Enchanted World Series):

In ancient China, Europe, and the Near East, dragons were symbolically
linked with elemental and chaotic powers, and, except in China, these
powers were almost exclusively destructive. Dragons were inevitably
opposed to the ordered world of humankind. Some myths attributed great
storms at sea to dragons: the serpent Jormungandr, for instance, was
the child of a god imprisoned in the abyss at the beginning of time,
and lay hidden in the icy depths of the oceans that embraced mortal
lands. The chroniclers said that the thunder god, Thor, drew the
beast from the waters once and fought him, but to no avail. The
dragon remained on the ocean floor, and the only signs of its presence
were the turmoil and storms caused by its writhing. In fact, the word
``typhoon'' derives from the name of the dragon typhon.

As in the alchemical Opus, the coming of order---the separation of
light from darkness, of the heavens and the earth from the
waters---required that the first dragons be conquered, since they were
demons of disorder. Their foes were gods, not men, for these
leviathans existed long before humankind appeared.

In Babylon, the story of the slaying of the first dragon was read each
year to celebrate the triumph over the creature of darkness. These
people had reason to celebrate order, as their civilization flourished
within great sun-washed cities: Babylon, graced with beautiful
gardens; Ur, with its towering ziggurat; and Nineveh, shielded by a
high wall and a huge ornamented gate. To the northwest of
Mesopotamia, the red-columned palace cities of Crete's Minoan kings
looked proudly over the Aegean Sea. To the west rose the palaces of
the pharoahs at Memphis, and immense stone pyramids that sheltered
their dead.

Yet all these proud monuments were but frail reeds, easily broken by
the winds of change and the dangers of the surrounding wilderness. As
the centuries passed, the cities fell and desert sands drifted over
the toppled stones. In the roaring of the winds and the crackle of
lightning, in the belching fires of volcanoes and the cataclysmic
shiftings of the ground, mortals saw chaos threaten again, and they
heard the dragon's scream.

They heard it behind everything that threatened order. The
seafaring Greeks in the time of Homer, for instance, observed the
islands of the Cyclades scattered like pearls across the lapis blue
Aegean, saw the ruins of once mighty Crete, heard the rumbling of
Sicilia's smoldering volcano, Mount Etna, and spoke of the monster
Typhon.

Ge concealed the creature as long as she could, the Greeks said, but
the time came at last when Typhon burst from his hiding place in Asia
Minor and strode toward Greece and Mount Olympus, bent on destroying
the young race of gods who threatened his own race.

He was a horror to behold. His height was such that he towered above
the mountains and could wade through the sea. He was composed of a
hideous, meaningless conjunction of parts. He had a hundred dragon
heads, each with burning eyes and an insanely gaping mouth that spat
fire and vomited rocks. A true son of chaos, Typhon took storm and
destruction with him. He strode through the Aegean, tossing the
clustered Cyclades about like stones. His fiery breath touched the
lovely, forested island of Thera, and its western half exploded,
leaving the island a barren, blackened crescent. The earthquakes and
the tidal waves caused by the explosion overwhelmed the kingdom of
Minos on Crete: On a single day of water and fire and smoke, the proud
red palaces were reduced to rubble.

However, as human societies once again became strong and as men again
imposed their order on the natural world, dragons were pushed farther
and farther from civilization until only the most remote wildernesses
were marked on maps with the simple warning, ``Here be dragons.'' But
the dragons that inhabited the rivers and caves and mountains of these
windy wildernesses following the conquest of the world by man were not
those first dragons of chaos. But they still retained some of the
chaotic powers of their cosmic ancestors. These earthly dragons were
creatures of wind and water and storm: they were the cause of
thunderstorms, earthquakes, and floods; in short, of all the
forces of nature that disturbed man's established order.

But then, according to the legends, mortal heroes---not only warriors,
but saints and even children---conquered the dragons who ventured
among them, and the last of that race finally disappeared.

Maury wrote:
> ...Since we know that cosmogonic myths are symbols for the coming of
> consciousness, then stated psychologically, the two fishes which the
> devil found on the primeval waters would signify the newly arisen
> world of consciousness...

I wonder if the "newly arisen world of consciousness" couldn't be
directly attributable to the rise of civilization? Accompanying this
rise, people are inevitably forced into a more and more
structured existence. They tend to adopt more specialized trades or
skills. And to live well in such close proximity with so many others
requires an overall structuring of personality. As civilizations
become larger and more dominant, the citizens become ever more
*differentiated*. And differentiation seems reasonably equivalent to
an increasing sense of self, or consciousness of self. I also suspect
that if civilization falls again, as it most likely will, the
survivors will revert to a much less self conscious state.

I think it's interesting that as we become increasingly specialized
and "ego encrusted" (as Westerners appear to the less developed parts
of the world) many of us long more and more for the simplicity and
lack of structure of the old ways. We long more and more for the
chaotic beauty of the natural world, and fight to protect the last few
places over which man has yet to impose his order. We feel more and
more isolated, and long to merge with a larger reality. And yet, like
the individual cells of an enormous organism, we feel trapped in some
sharply defined role. Then, rather than a separation of light from
darkness, this process of differentiation appears more like a fall
from a state of primeval grace.

-Patrick

Wed Mar 06 21:24:44 1996
Subject: 0396 Beryl and Thomas Vaughan

From: Gionni Di Gravio
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:44:25 +1000 (EST)

Dear People,

The Sefer Raziel's section on stones (known as the Book of Wings
or Liber ALA) relates that Beryl is one of those stones which has a power
of reconciling ill feeling among folk. I could imagine that John Dee
would have had a soft spot for that stone as there are reports that he
was a peacemaker among his neighbours, making it impossible to continue a
feud in his presence.

Sincerely,

`.'
Gionni Di Gravio ( * )
[email protected] -+-
University of Newcastle, Australia .^:^.

Thu Mar 07 09:16:15 1996
Subject: 0397 Conversion of energy to matter

From: Logodox
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 19:18:45 -0600

[you wrote:]

>Also, are there any other examples of energy being converted to
>matter, or is this the only one?

Radiative emission and radiative absorbtion is where transverse-electromagnetic-
radiation becomes bound ("particles") and where bound energy is released
into transverse form.

Matter is a relative state where some "bound" energy exists for some period
of time, however short or long.

ALL conversions of "energy" into "matter" involves above situation...

Best,

nous ----> [email protected]

Thu Mar 07 09:16:26 1996
Subject: 0398 Hidden practice in Goethe's Faust

From: Rawn Clark
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:22:40 -0500

Dear Beat,

Your meaning shines forth clearly in your re-statement,
and more importantly, your good intent and loving kindness
are more self-evident. This good sir, is the Magic which
moves mountains...its effect on a mere boulder is undoubtably
assured! It is always possible to serve boulders, unavoidable
"Stones of Stumbling", with a side dish of a Path Around It. A
little sauce of Loving Kindness on top, and voila'....the completely
*digest*able boulder!

Burrrp... Ahhhhh.... ;)
And now for some ale!

I look forward to the boulders you will grace us with in the future.
So far they have proved quite stimulating, and have been of
inestimable value to me personally!!!

Best to you!
:) Rawn Clark
6 Mar 96

Thu Mar 07 09:16:36 1996
Subject: 0399 Newton's Alchemy

From: LeGrand Cinq-Mars
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 19:49:41 -0700 (PDT)

Author: Dobbs, Betty J.
Title: The Foundations of Newton's Alchemy: Or "The Hunting of the
Greene Lyon"
Publisher: Cambridge University Press
Year: 1983
Pages: 300p.
Illustration: Illustrated
ISBN/Price: 0-521-27381-1 Trade Paper $24.95
Subj (BIP): NEWTON-ISAAC-SIR-1642-1727
Subj (Pbk): SCIENCE-GENERAL-SCIENCE

also of interest --

Author: Jacob, Margaret C. Dobbs, Betty J. T.
Title: Newton and the Culture of Newtonianism
Publisher: Humanities Press International, Incorporated
Year: 1995
Series: Control of Nature Ser.
Pages: 152p.
ISBN/Price: 0-391-03878-8 Cloth Text $39.95
0-391-03877-X Trade Paper $12.50
Audience: College
Subj (BIP): erson was opening the gate.

Author: Dobbs, Betty J.
Title: The Janus Faces of Genius: The Role of Alchemy in Newton's
Thought
Publisher: Cambridge University Press
Year: 1992
Pages: 380p.
Illustration: Illustrated
ISBN/Price: 0-521-38084-7 Trade Cloth $49.95 (Ingram Price), $49.95

LeGrand Cinq-Mars
[email protected]

Thu Mar 07 09:16:44 1996
Subject: 0400 Matter and Energy and Alchemy

From: Logodox
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 20:02:49 -0600

[you wrote:]

So, what is it alchemists ingest to supplement and fortify their
bodies? It can't be merely food (matter), or a good diet alone would
do the trick. It must be energy, captured somehow. What kind of
energy and how to find it? How is it captured? Captured in
food and drink? Captured via breathing? Captured via sexual
exchanges? Captured via meditation? Could it be that bodily
improvements are a secondary (but nice nonetheless) effect and the
primary purpose is to raise vibrations on a spiritual level?

Possibly the most fundamental bedrocks of modern physics are the
"conservation" laws. They basically say that some things such as energy,
charge, momentum etc.
are conserved, meaning the total quantity in the universe of such things
remain constant, i.e. if energy increases here, it decreases elsewhere. Of
course, no physicist has ever "encompassed" the whole universe in order to
observe and/or measure the total quantity of one of these things.

The truck has converted matter into energy, but neither the total matter or
energy in the universe has changed, only the form of 1 or both of them.

Above the level of atomic particles (aggregates of many molecules) the
direction of time begins to appear. At the atomic level, there is no
apparent direction of time from the past to the future or viceversa. If one
could film atomics, one could not with certainty determine the direction of
time. But with large collections of molecules, time seems to take on a
direction from "past" to "present" to "future" and one of the fundamentals
of thermodynamics is the law of entropy which states that order seems to
decrease, i.e. energy seems to dissipate. Last I followed the literature
(about 10 years ago) I believe the eggheads had modified their view to
consider living things outside the law of entropy because (obviously) order
was increasing amongst living things!

Having said all the previous, now th metaphysics:

As is taught in all post-high school metaphysics lessons, the universe You
are perceiving is not as it seems. DUH. There are many theories from
Hearclides thru modern quantum physics. Suffice it to say that space and
time are probably just holo-graphic like projects of the brain. This is not
to say that the world "out there" is not out there, it is to say that a
possible state of being exists wherein these conveniences of our current
level of evolution (physically) disappear. Many great mins have groped for
the "actual" order out there (including Einstein) and failed.

In the final analysis, all that can be real is mind (Plotinus). If You
analyze mind to it's end degree, You end up with "ORDER" as opposed to
"CHAOS". Where there have existed necessary long sequences of time (by
human standards) for physical development and evolution, than I offer (very
un-originally) that a universal mind exists which even pre-existed the
big-bang, and this is the ground or ungrund of Boehme of ultimate actuality.
The real essence of all existence and ergo, the unmoved mover, the uncreated
creator, GOD etc. etc. etc.

Read Trismegistus or HERMES dialogues to his son TAT where he says "If You
would understand GOD, than be (mentally) like GOD. Imagine Yourself in all
places at ONCE,
in the sea, the air and the stars.

Peggy, We could not be here if an intelligence (of some form) did not
preexist us!

Modern science (at least in formal writings) has forgotten that something
made us,
it wasn't blind luck. That concept is as insulting to intelligence as is
some fairy tales taught by some orgazized groups.

Your emotion is the Alchemical Chaos, Your MIND is the Alchemical ORDER,
Your polarized concepts are the bride & groom, marry them and You will have the
original hermaphrodite, the one being, pre-existing all matter !

Best,
nous ----> [email protected]