Alchemy Forum 0651-0700

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 651-700.
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Fri Apr 12 21:05:11 1996
Subject: 0651 Cinnabar, Caro's way

From: John Reid
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:08:24 -0400 (EDT)

Was the stone that you wrote about put through three revolutions of the
wheel or only one.
JHRIII

On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:

> From: Beat Krummenacher
> Date: 09 Apr 96 18:29:41 EDT
>
>
> Dear Manfred,
>
> you wrote: >The so-called Way of Cinnabar has been thaugt by the French
> alchemist Roger Caro who lived in South France and died few years ago.<
>
> Have you practically examined the way? As far as I am informed, the process
> actually is very simple. Only the preparation of the necessary raw materials for
> the work is costly. Thereby the production of the salt fire presents the most
> time-consuming work. But also this is to be made...
>
> The problem: Good friends of mine have re-enacted dozens of times the union of
> the three essential alchemical principles of this work. Thereby they exactly
> followed the statements of Caro. The described and also in photos captured color
> changes which Caro observed really are reproducible. Only: The product was not
> the philosopher's stone! One received a red powder, which however did not own
> the characteristics being attributed to it.
>
> Do you know more about it?
>
> Best regards
> Lapis

Fri Apr 12 21:05:20 1996
Subject: 0652 Cinnabar, Caro's way

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:21:33 GMT

Dear Manfred,
When you answer Beat Krummenacher's last post, please don't go into private
conversation, but post it onto the alchemy forum, because I am also very
interested in what you have to say. Please include me.

Kind regards,
---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
[email protected]
---
WO KEIN LIEB, DA IST KEIN KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Sat Apr 13 14:11:48 1996
Subject: 0653 Alchemy - Golden Dawn Statement

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 11:45 NZST

Regarding the post and Golden Dawn Alchemy.
In the old order they did not teach the practical but encouraged
adepts to apply the Z2 formulea to all alchemical studies. In short, they
wanted to do full ritual with alchemical work . Today however, there are GD
temples popping up all over the place and each one applies the system
differently. As far as the original GD went it was the application of magic
that was important, the practical was often left to ones own devices to sort
out. An ideal situation would be for the students to study a course such as
the Philosphers of nature and use the GD ritual applications to it. At any
rate it is good to see that some temples are doing more than simply applying
magical studies but are emplying more practical alchemical methods as well,
and this makes the GD system more balanced than before.

Pat zalewski

Sat Apr 13 14:13:14 1996
Subject: 0654 Calhhh and "all"

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:19:28 GMT

Dear Jose,

You write: >>If you have a clear definition of Alchemy that no one else
could refute, let us know. But please provide your own definition, not what
others have written about it.<<

If I use another's text or definition it is because I am of the same
opinion, and I choose it because I have to admit that he/she can say it
better than I can.

---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
[email protected]
---
WO KEIN LIEB, DA IST KEIN KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Sat Apr 13 14:13:26 1996
Subject: 0655 Jose

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:33:47 -0400
From: photopro

Dear Jose...I wrote that piece that so disturbed you. It is my truth.
No one has to agree. I state my way of life. Please do inform me of
your beliefs as I would be glad to read and understand where you are
coming from. I do not have to agree but I'll give you respect.And
please do tell me why you are so upset. You have read my meditated
truths not dogma. Please do include what you believe is the purpose of
Alchemy. This is very important for me to become wise. Wisa of
Photopro

Sat Apr 13 14:13:48 1996
Subject: 0656 The Law of Reciprocal Action

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:42:01 -0500 (EST)

>From: douwe

>It may not be appropriate for me to answer on this, because I haven't
>been following the former discussions on this topic.
>(I have only been subscribed for one day)
>But still I have some thoughts regarding karma.

Thanks for your comments, douwe; I enjoyed reading them. And
welcome to the Alchemy Forum. I particularly liked the way
you tied "solve and coagula" in with the discussion on Karma.

Regards,

- Peggy -

PS: I would have sent this in email but your email address was not
on your post and the listserv strips out all other addresses.

Sat Apr 13 14:13:57 1996
Subject: 0657 Alchemical Music

From: AstroVisuals
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:30:03 -0600

One more offering re: Alchemical music.

Robert Fripp's "The Catalogue of Metals."
It's on an album by Robert Fripp and Brian Eno called Evening Star.

It's electronic music, quite beautiful and strange. Starts out very high
and fine, like hydrogen and helium, then gradually descends into denser,
weightier vibrations. As it reaches its heaviest point, the high tones
imperceptibly return.

Robert Fripp is, I believe, "into" the philosophy of Gurdjieff. But I
think this music fits into an alchemical mindset.

Also, Patrice, I don't believe you are insulting the Royal Art. You
experience personal transformation and self-becoming through your music.
That is your tool and your gift, and we can only (and _must_) work with
what we are given.
Music and alchemy seem like a natural combination to me, since both work
with vibration (number), the basic structures of matter and energy.

Martha

Sat Apr 13 13:41:06 1996
Subject: Lacuna in the alchemy forum

My apologies for the slight lacuna in the Alchemy forum mail. I have been in London on Thursday and Friday so haven't been able to repost the messages to the forum.

Now there is a lot of stuff to catch up on!!!

Adam McLean

Sat Apr 13 14:14:11 1996
Subject: 0658 Twentieth Century Alchemy

From: Patrick J. Smith
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:27:48 -0600

Here is a short biography of Jean-Julien Champagne/Fulcanelli. While
much of this information is well known, I've added a few
points which may not have been widely considered before, so, perhaps I
can be forgiven for taking the least obscure 20th Century alchemist.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

During the 1930s, an investigation into the identity of Fulcanelli was
conducted by Robert Ambelain, a student of the occult who had been
inspired by Fulcanelli's books. Having written a book of his own,
Ambelain went to see Jean Schemit, the original publisher of
Fulcanelli's works. While there Schemit told him that, in 1926, he
was visited by a stranger who had not given his name, but had engaged
him in conversation about the hermetic symbols encoded in Gothic
architecture. A few weeks later, Canseliet appeared with the
manuscript of `Le Mystere des Cathedrales', which, Schemit
noted, was filled with the same ideas and phrases used by his vistor
of a few weeks before. Later, Canseliet returned with Jean-Julien
Champagne, the illustrator, whom Schemit immediately recognized as the
visitor. In his presence, Canseliet often referred to Champagne as
his Master, and so, from these and other clues, Schemit became
convinced that Fulcanelli and Champagne were one and the same.

Ambelain's attention was again drawn to Champagne by an article in
which Champagne described one of his illustrations in clearly
alchemistical terms, while Canseliet had always passed him off as a
talented illustrator with no particular knowledge of alchemy. Hence,
following his talk with Schemit, Ambelain decided to follow up his
inquiries.

Champagne was born on January 23, 1877. He was interested in art from
an early age, and is said to have begun his alchemical work at the age
of sixteen. In 1916 he met Eugene Canseliet, who was then seventeen
years old, and took him on as a student. In 1921, according to
Ambelain's account, Champagne became the teacher of the sons of his
friend, Ferdinand de Lesseps, who was setting up a laboratory at
Bourges. Champagne had boasted that within six months he would be
able to manufacture gold, but succeeded only in losing about 60g of
the metal. In 1922, Champagne met Jules Boucher, and was persuaded to
take him and Gaston Sauvage on as students. It was Jules Boucher who
later gave Ambelain much of his information. Boucher told Ambelain
that his Master (Champagne) was the one who had corrected the proofs
to both of Fulcanelli's books, and had made all the decisions concerning
their production.

From the beginning of 1925, Champagne and Canseliet lived at the same
address in Paris (#59 rue Rochechouart) in sixth floor attic rooms.
During this period Champagne established a secret society known as the
Freres d'Heliopolis to whom both of Fulcanelli's works were dedicated.
This group, however, was limited to Champagne, Canseliet, Sauvage,
Boucher, and a couple of others. It was through this group that the
first mention of Fulcanelli was made.

Over the years, Champagne had told many people, both in writing and in
person, that he was Fulcanelli, and even thus signed Boucher's copy of
`Le Mystere des Cathedrales'. Evidently, he also left clues in
Fulcanelli's books. Ambelain observed that on the last page of the
original edition of `Le Mystere' was a shield with the motto: UBER
CAMPA AGNA, which is a phonetic approximation of Hubert Champagne
(according to Boucher, his full name was Jean-Julien Hubert
Champagne).

When Ambelain called at Canseliet and Champagne's old address in 1936,
he found their ex-concierge, Mme. Labille, still there. She told him
that in all the time Champagne had lived there he had only ever
received three visitors: Canseliet, Boucher and Sauvage.

Throughout his life, Canseliet steadfastly denied and dismissed the
evidence pointing to Champagne. Jacques Sadoul also dismissed it for
an interesting reason: that Champagne is certainly dead, and therefore
couldn't be Fulcanelli. To understand this arguement, we turn to the
year 1937, when Jacques Bergier was working as an assistant to the
scientist M. Hellbronner, who was later killed by the Nazis. They
were engaged in experiments relating to low level nuclear
transmutations in an apparatus which employed high power electrical
discharges in an evacuated tube. One afternoon in June of that year
Bergier was visited by a stranger who said that he was an alchemist
and proceeded to warn him of the perils facing humanity from nuclear
energy, and read a passage from Soddy's `Interpretation of Radium'
to make the point. He also stated that:

Geometrical arrangements of extremely pure substances suffice to loose
atomic forces without the use of electricity or the vacuum technique...

Throughout his life, Bergier believed that the stranger was, in fact,
Fulcanelli, and the story, which has been repeated in a number of
publications, has become part of the legend. Years later, Bergier
learned that the *atomic pile* could be described as a `geometrical
arrangement of extremely pure substances' and indeed required neither
electricty nor the use of a vacuum to loose nuclear forces. Bergier
concluded that the stranger must have been decades ahead of official
science. The problem with this is that there is a much simpler
explanation.

The alchemical opus was generally described as a series of
purifications which aim to produce a substance which is purer than
anything found on earth. The Aristotelian elements which we perceive
in the mundane world were thought to be corrupted to a greater or
lesser extent, and thus were only poor approximations to the *ideal*
elements of earth, water, air, and fire, much as in the allegory of
Plato's cave, the shadows on the cave wall are mistaken for reality
they only represent. The object of the alchemical work was to purify
the elements, and the Philosopher's Stone was often described as a
species of gold, purer than the purest. It was also described as a
solid, heavy, *crystalline* substance, and was believed to possess the
power of nuclear transmutation. Now, if a self-admitted alchemist
explains that a geometrical arrangement of extremely pure substances
suffice to loose atomic forces, the obvious conclusion is that he is
describing the *Philosopher's Stone!* However, faced with this
circumstance, Bergier thought that he must have meant an atomic pile,
even though such had not yet been invented. For this, Bergier, who
had little knowledge of alchemical philosophy, might be forgiven. But
the story is repeated uncritically by Jacques Sadoul, Kenneth Johnson,
and others, all of whom spent years studying alchemy!

Of course, this doesn't prove that the stranger wasn't Fulcanelli,
although it does suggest that Bergier's visitor did not anticipate
twentieth century nuclear physics, but had a conventional
understanding of alchemy. The identity of the stranger remains
unknown. But his ideas, as related by Bergier, bear little
resemblance to those of Fulcanelli, and there is really no evidence
linking the two. Thus Jacques Sadoul's objection, based on the
premise that Fulcanelli remained alive, begins to appear
unsupportable.

But Canseliet also claimed to have seen Fulcanelli in 1954, twenty-two
years after the death of Champagne. In that year, according to
friends of Canseliet (who related the story to Kenneth Johnson), he
was compelled to pack his bags and travel overland to Seville, Spain,
where he was taken by a long, circuitous route to a large castle,
somewhere in the mountains. On arrival, he was greeted by his old
Master, Fulcanelli, who had not physically aged over the intervening
years. Canseliet was conducted to the upper floor of a turret
overlooking a broad courtyard where, later, he saw a number of
children dressed in the style of the sixteenth-century. He was
allotted a laboratory for his experiments, in which he became
engrossed. Occasionally, Fulcanelli would appear and speak with him
briefly. One morning, Canseliet descended the staircase to the bottom
of the turret and, while standing in an archway that opened onto the
courtyard, was approached by three women wearing long, flowing,
sixteenth-century styled dresses. As the women walked by, one of them
turned, looked at him, smiled, turned away, and walked on. Canseliet
was stunned---the face of the woman was that of Fulcanelli! Canseliet
eventually returned to France with only a vague, dream-like
recollection of the events. He never again saw Fulcanelli.

The incredible nature of this story aside, the embedded alchemical
symbolism is unmistakeable. In fact, without entering into a
discussion of its exact symbolic meaning, it's interesting that
similar alchemical analogies appear in `Le Mystere des
Cathedrales'. For instance, on pg. 44 of the Neville-Spearman or
Brotherhood of Life edition of the Sworder translation, footnote #8,
Fulcanelli wrote:

It is said that Tireseas was deprived of his sight for revealing to
mortals the secrets of Olympus. However he lived `for seven, eight or
nine ages of man' and is supposed to have been successively man and
woman.

Alchemists often symbolized alchemical operations or sequences under
the guise of a journey, and Fulcanelli was well aware of this, as he
had analyzed Flamel's symbolic journey in his first book. There, he
described the Traveller or Pilgrim as emblems of the principle of
Mercury. Though there is evidence that Canseliet did actually travel
to Spain, his account of the events while there was almost certainly
symbolic, and hence there is no reason to believe that Fulcanelli,
whoever he was, survives.

Champagne died in 1932 of absinthe. Although a third Fulcanelli book
was later rumoured, nothing more was ever printed. Jean Schemit died
in 1945. Jules Boucher died in 1957. Jacques Bergier in 1978.
Eugene Canseliet pursued the alchemical quest throughout his long
life, but, in the end, admitted failure. He died in the mid 1980s.
And thus came to a close a strange chapter in the strange history of
alchemy. If Fulcanelli really was someone other than Champagne and
yet survives, as some care to believe, it's difficult to understand
how he could have let all his old friends and colleagues die when he
had the power to save them. It is much easier to believe that
Canseliet faithfully kept a promise to conceal the true identity of
Fulcanelli, and over the years managed to keep his old friend and
mentor alive in the minds of other men.

-Patrick

Sat Apr 13 14:14:26 1996
Subject: 0659 20th Century Alchemy

From: calhhh
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:37:18 -0400

Dear Forum Members :

Jose B. Escada Jr. wrote on his message 0641 20th century Alchemy :

> ORCIS, could you please provide us more information about this
> group and, if possible, their address in Spain ?

> I deeply agree with this comments about Simon H.: his work is known
> in far lands, like Brazil where I live. His books are amongst the
> most clear alchemical literature I had seen (and I had studied
> hundreds of them), full of information you can't find in other
> writings and without the symbolism commonly found even in other
> 20th Century authors. His books deserve learning Spanish just to
> read them as I did.

Indeed Jose, SIMON H.'s books are very plainly written and I also
found them to be EXTREMELY revealing.

I started reading about alchemy related books in my teens and at
that time I found them to be extremely difficult to understand all
its simbolisms and ciphered terminology. After several years of
reading I had come to the conclusion that Alchemy was strictly a
Spiritual path, but that laboratory work towards the obtainment
of The Stone or The Alkahest, was not possible. For me the
lab side of Alchemy became at that age like a beautiful and
complex but unattainable dream.

It was not until about two years ago (about 20 years later) that
through the reading of SIMON H. book, where he reported that after
many years of hard work he had obtained THE RED STONE, that I
became convinced that 'practical laboratory alchemy', (meaning
the succesful completion of The Great Work), was really attainable.
As a result I retook my quest, now being aware that Alchemy's path
in its fullest meaning meant a twofold road of practical and
spiritual alchemy, walking hand in hand, the feet on the earth
and the head on heaven, requiring lots and lots of hard, consistent
and dedicated work, lots of prayer (in its best sense ..), and then
perhaps, and by the Grace of God, the goal may be obtained.

Anticipating a response, I will also say that NO, I AM IN NO WAY
ILLUMINATED nor yet hold the knowledge for the completion of this
path, nor feel that I own The Truth or only possible meaning of
Alchemy. Furthermore I truly and deeply respect any other
interpretation of the Alchemical path, and also truly believe that
the Spiritual Evolution, is in any case the most important reason
of anyone's existence. So, spiritual (internal) alchemy, as well as
many others, are perfectly OK ! I am just stating my believe as to
what alchemy is all about ... Indeed there is a valid and important
space for alchemical music and art in general. Alchemy pretends to
teach us how Nature works, and nature is full of music, sights and
sounds, as well as free energy, medicine, architecture, we just have
to learn to go with the flow of It, and then once we may recognize
its laws, to act as an able assistant (alchemist ..) to help whenever
possible to accelerate its processes for the benefit of Humankind.
This has been stated by Paracelsus and many others, and indeed many
present alchemists are working in different aspects of this, my
beloved DIVINE ART. So I am just a beggining but eager student ....

Coming back to SIMON H., and this not being an advertisement of any
kind, for those of you that may be interested, his books are the
following :

1) LA PUERTA CERRADA - Diario de un alquimista (The closed door -
Diary of an alchemist). First published in 1981. In this book
he states that finally he was able to accomplished The Great Work,
and gives lots and lots of helpful insights.

2) LAS PALOMAS DE DIANA Y LA MEDICINA UNIVERSAL (Diana's Doves and
the Universal Medicine). A beautifully illustrated book, recently
reissued with many simbolic paintings full of meaning. It discusses
the Mercurial Phase, with a lot of information.

3) EL LIBRO DE ORO DE LA ALQUIMIA. (Alchemy's golden book). Full color
pictures of the different stages of the Work, up to the first Wheel.
Also discusses the Athanor, and a lot of other helpful insights.

4) ALQUIMIA - EL ENIGMA DE LOS TIEMPOS (Alchemy . Enigma of the Ages)
He mentions a little about alchemy's history and shows some corre-
lations among the classical authors, making some general comments.
He also clarifies his possition against working in metallic trans-
mutation, since he feels the main and true purpose of Alchemy is
the obtainment of the Universal Medicine. He respects anyone's
right to take this path, but states the fears for the tremendous
consequences this could bring for the world economy in general and
to the alchemist in particular. He feels the right alchemical path
is towards the obtainment and refinement of The Elixir, which he
feels that sometime in the rather near future will be useful for the
regeneration not only of health but of nature as we know it. He
touches the subject of the lab and give a couple of exercises that
may give the reader some very general but helpful insights of basic
principles.

5) ALQUIMIA - LOS SIETE TIEMPOS (Alchemy - The seven times)
A beautiful and revealing collection of 7 paintings with their
respective texts, that pretend to give the reader insights,
acting as truly alchemical mandalas.

I will gladly send the publishers information to those whom may be
interested in obtaining them, but I am not sure if all may be
available at this time, since most of them were published in the
1980's. ( By the way... No, I am not related to the publishers
in any way, nor I would profit at all for the reference ...)

I know that through the Ages, many people has claimed to be Adepts,
and most of them have only been charlatans. That is why I had not
mentioned in my previous message more details about this author,
since I did not want it to sound as an endorsement.

The only thing I can attest to, is that after extensive
correspondence, I met some of the members of the group, that
they seem extremely sincere and truthful, that they showed me
some of their work and that in my opinion they are definetely not
searching for the shine of Gold, nor fame or publicity. On the
contrary they are rather humble, but do come accross as being
very sure of what they are doing. They do hold the traditional
mystical and secretive view of alchemy, but also feel that the
time has come for Alchemy to slowly start regaining its "proper"
position within the "scientific" world; not as a cold repeatable
set of experiments, understanding that the experimenter influence
the outcome of the experiment (as quantum physics now accepts ..),
but as a new way of spiritual science; a Science with a Conscience.
That is why they have subjected small samples of The Stone for lab
analysis at a very reputable spanish university, bringing as a result
after extensive tests, that the material in question was=
UNIDENTIFIABLE. I was able to review a book by the name of
LA FASCINANTE HISTORIA DE LA ALQUIMIA - ESCRITA POR UN CIENTIFICO
MODERNO (THE FASCINATING HISTORY OF ALCHEMY - WRITTEN BY A MODERN SCIENTIST) written in 1991 by DR. CIRO ARRIBAS JIMENO, professor
emeritus and cathedratic of analitical chemistry, an international
known and well respected chemist, whom under the auspices of the
UNIVERSITY OF OVIEDO (SPAIN) wrote this book making a historical
overview of alchemy, and which contains many positive commentaries
about Simon H., stating that the author truly considers him to be a
20th century ADEPT. Even though I do not own a copy of this book, I
do have the bibliographic references for anyone interested. For
whatever is worth, my feeling towards them and their work is
VERY GOOD !!!

Just to finish this already TOO LONG and perhaps somewhat personal
message I will say that for what I was able to learn about them,
the group of SIMON H., is composed of very few disciples and work
very low profile, but with continuing and intensive research.
I compromised not to give their address, but if anyone wishes to
contact them, I will be very glad to receive via email any messages,
and then to forward them via snail mail to their destination.
Messages should include a mailing address so that they may write back
if so choose to do it, since for what I know Simon H. is not connected
to the Net.

Sorry for taking your time, but since several people requested more
info. I decided to post it in the forum. Receive my fraterly love,

ORCIS

[email protected]

"MONTES FIDES MOVETO"

Sat Apr 13 14:14:36 1996
Subject: 0660 20th Century Alchemy

From: al4302
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:23:23 +0100

>Re: that portion that states above "the Stone could be found only as a
>result of divine favor..." This is true of all the creative genius
>tangents into "Divine Art". And in reference to my two other posted
>E-mails today, may I state that I did not mention my agreement in this
>belief. For Man might elect and strive but without "BLESSINGS/GRACE"
>there will be hinderance in the processing of Desire / Quest toward
>Wisdom/Stone/Transmutation.
>
> Wisa / PhotoProse

Why do you call yourself PhotoProse, has it for you an alchemical
significance, do you refer to the preperation of the Prime Matter
or are you one of those New age types that think that the Alchemical
process takes place on a transendental level only.

Regards Lenns

Sat Apr 13 14:14:45 1996
Subject: 0661 Books on Klossowski de Rola

From: calhhh
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:31:53 -0400

Dear Forum Members :

I recently read a book by Stanislas Klossowski de Rola called
"ALCHEMY The Secret Art (Thames and Hudson, New York reprinted
1992) which I truly enjoyed by its content as well as its
wonderful illustrations.

I would like to learn more information about this author, as
well as to purchase his other works, so I would appreciate
greatly any insights as to his work, and also the bibliographic
references of his other books. I recently saw mentioned in the
forum another of his books by the name of "Le Jeu d'Or",
published in English as "The Golden Game" but no references
about publisher, etc. were given.

Your assistance will be greatly appreciated.

ORCIS
[email protected]

"MONTES FIDES MOVETO"

Sat Apr 13 14:14:54 1996
Subject: 0662 20th Century Alchemy

From: tim scott
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:33:37 -0700

>
> Shall we revisit the Hudson papers? They are pure 20th century.
>
> With WPG wishes,
>
> Charlie.

Dear Friends: I know this list is not a democracy *:^>) but if
you want my opinion I would for my part be very depressed if this
subject started going around again. Don't the WPG/Hudson/et al
gang have their own places to discuss this? I implore Adam to
not let this forum be taken over again by this. In my opinion
Hudson may be "pure 20th century", but pure 20th century fraud
and/or delusion.

On the other hand, the post by calhhh really intrigued me, as I
did not know of the deep research on alchemy being done in Spain.
I would gladly welcome more information from that direction.

Although my personal bias is towards laboratory, "classic" and
oriental alchemical works, traditions and methods, I understand
that the word "alchemy" can mean pretty much whatever one wants
it to mean. As they say , "YMMV" (Your Mileage May Vary.")

Thanks for reading.

Tim Scott

Sat Apr 13 14:15:03 1996
Subject: 0663 20th Century Alchemy - Hudson

In reply to Tim Scott's view that it would depress him if the Forum got tied up again in the Hudson material, I would like to say the following.

Discussion of Hudson's work in the context of alchemy is of course allowed on this forum, however, there is now a forum dedicated just to exploring all the ramifications of the Hudson material, and it is best if people especially interested in Hudon subscribed to that forum as they can follow up points in detail with people who have studied the Hudson material in some depth.

The two previous phases when the Alchemy forum became swamped with material on Hudson, arose because there was a growing interest in discussing Dave Hudson's work and the Alchemy forum seemed a natural place in which to address these questions. With the formation of a specialist forum, the alchemy forum will no longer be taken over by this subject for a month or two as happened late last year, but there will no doubt be occasions when people want to raise questions about Hudson's work in an alchemical context and that I am sure will be okay for most of the members of this forum.

Best wishes,

Adam McLean

Sat Apr 13 14:15:24 1996
Subject: 0664 20th Century alchemists

From: douwe
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:07:31 GMT

On Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:05:56 +0000, you wrote:

>From:Pat Zalewski
>Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 07:55 NZST

>>Archibald Cochren was also supposed to have made the philosophers stone.
>People who visited him saw it growing, but alas he also did not last long.
>We have two alchemists who have claimed to have made the stone, and both of
>them died under normal circumstances.
>There was no prolonging of life here.
>I do not think both of them were liars. This seems to pose more questions
>than answers.

If the ability exists to manufacture the Stone, then you must have
mastered the same quality spiritually.
If this is the case then dbr>

Wed Apr 10 10:50:40 1996
absolute liberation') to you.

douwe

[email protected]

Sat Apr 13 14:15:36 1996
Subject: 0665 20th Century alchemists

From: al4302
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:11:49 +0100

At 21:05 12/04/96 +0000, you wrote:
>From:Pat Zalewski
>Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 07:55 NZST
>
>
>
>>Archibald Cochren was also supposed to have made the philosophers stone.
>People who visited him saw it growing, but alas he also did not last long.
>We have two alchemists who have claimed to have made the stone, and both of
>them died under normal circumstances. There was no prolonging of life here.
>I do not think both of them were liars. This seems to pose more questions
>than answers.
>
>Pat zalewski
>
The observers of Mr Cochren's stone were in a small way incorect in that it
was not his stone that they were witness to but rarther an alchemical tree
grown in a flask. The tree is matalic and produces silver and gold leafs
and a flower, it is not the stone but rarther an aplication of it, it serves
no purpose but to amuse the alchemist. Anyone can grow such a tree, the
procedure can be given in the form of a recipe but there is one ingrident that is
not available to most and that is the seed. The existance of this tree in the
possesion of Mr Cochren bears witness to the fact that he knew the secret for
the tree is not posible without the seed and the seed is not posible without
the stone. However it is possible that the seed was provided by another probaly
his teacher for in such a case the tree grows at the same rate as the student.
The tree epitomises the the work and demostates that the stone is made via
a process of growth not reduction to an essence. The existance of Mr Cochren's
tree was confirmed to me by his sister in law who is still alive and witnessed
the tree first hand.
I would add that in all probability there are just as may adepts around today
as there has always been and I would be willing to bet that one or two are
tuned into this forum. It is an unlucky alchemist that becomes known.

Sat Apr 13 14:15:48 1996
Subject: 0666 20th Century alchemists

From: RawnClark
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:18:44 -0400

In a message dated 96-04-12 18:21:46 EDT, you write:

>There was no prolonging of life here.
>I do not think both of them [Roger Caro & Archibald Cockren] were liars.
>This seems to pose more questions than answers.
>
>Pat zalewski

Did anyone ask these folks if they had actually employed the Stone personally
for such a use? It is after all, a matter of choice at such a juncture, no?
There are also considerations of personal karma when the issue of prolonging
life arises. Though the Stone may return the body to a state of health, I
see many ways in which that would not necessarily equal prolonging the life
of said body. It would be very enlightening to hear from folks who conversed
with these Alchemists, whether or not they ever stated their preferences or
expectations in this matter.

Great achievement, does not necessarily require that the achiever use the
fruits of their labor in the ways another might expect, or even understand.
Yet, we all tend to judge the results of others by the standard of our own
level of understanding. Human lives are not as simple as chemistry, not as
predictable, because we can never grasp the entirety of another's experience
and perspective. How then are we to judge another's claim of completion of
the Great Work without physical evidence of transmutation (or any other
accepted test of the Stone)? We certainly have no such concrete evidence
remaining with which to judge the writings of the Sages.

Yet somehow we judge, as is our human way. Without physical evidence to
examine, or witnesses to such an examination, we must call upon our intuition
and our rational intellect, and then personally decide......or not.

:) Rawn Clark
12 Apr 96

Sun Apr 14 12:55:41 1996
Subject: 0667 20th Century alchemists

From: al4302
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:44:53 +0100

>On Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:05:56 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>From:Pat Zalewski
>>Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 07:55 NZST
>
>
>>>Archibald Cochren was also supposed to have made the philosophers stone.
>>People who visited him saw it growing, but alas he also did not last long.
>>We have two alchemists who have claimed to have made the stone, and both of
>>them died under normal circumstances.
>>There was no prolonging of life here.
>>I do not think both of them were liars. This seems to pose more questions
>>than answers.
>
>
>If the ability exists to manufacture the Stone, then you must have
>mastered the same quality spiritually.
>If this is the case then death is a welcome change (or better 'an
>absolute liberation') to you.
>
>douwe
>
>[email protected]
>

Do you mean death of the Philosophical Death?

Sun Apr 14 12:55:50 1996
Subject: 0668 Twentieth Century Alchemy

From: al4302
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:34:51 +0100

If Fulcanelli really was someone other than Champagne and
>yet survives, as some care to believe, it's difficult to understand
>how he could have let all his old friends and colleagues die when he
>had the power to save them.
>-Patrick

The tincture is only medicine for the one who makes it.

Sun Apr 14 12:55:58 1996
Subject: 0669 20th Century alchemists - Ingaleses

From: calhhh
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:54:26 -0400

Rawn Clark (message 0666) said :

>Did anyone ask these folks if they had actually employed the Stone
personally
>for such a use? It is after all, a matter of choice at such a juncture,
no?
>There are also considerations of personal karma when the issue of
prolonging
>life arises. Though the Stone may return the body to a state of health, I
>see many ways in which that would not necessarily equal prolonging the life
>of said body.

Rawn, for what I have been able to read of the Ingaleses they did not
believe in ingesting the Stone to prolong life. They even stated that
in order to prolong life, ingesting the Stone was not sufficient but
a complete regimen of Life must be undertaken. I will look up the exact
reference and post it. However, they did report of ingesting a STONE
perhaps at an inferior level of purification, in order to regain health.
In their reports of working with their group of friends, I recall even
a narration of resucitating the deceased wife of one of their friends
about half hour after her death.

Notwithstanding, I feel that having somekind of a medicine, if they indeed
were able to obtain the Stone, they should not have been in the poor
state of health that is reported they died in, as per Tim's info. One
thing is to choose not to prolong life, and other, supposedly having the
knowledge that they did, to suffer the consequences of all those kind
of diseases. I truly believe in personal freedom to choose using or not
a given medicine, but to suffer innecesarily just does not make sense, at
least to me ... But those are just my thoughts from this distant point
of reference.

Reports of people that may have known the Ingaleses would be very
interesting.

Best Regards,

ORCIS
[email protected]

"MONTES FIDES MOVETO"

Sun Apr 14 12:56:10 1996
Subject: 0670 20th Century Alchemists

From: calhhh
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:54:55 -0400

20TH CENTURY ALCHEMISTS > PURIFICATION LEVELS OF THE STONE

DOUWE (message 0664) wrote:

> If the ability exists to manufacture the Stone, then you must
> have mastered the same quality spiritually.
> If this is the case then death is a welcome change (or better 'an
> absolute liberation') to you.

DOUWE seems to argue that to manufacture THE STONE the operator
must have achieved "the same quality spiritually". Do you mean
that in order to make the stone you must be illuminated in the
sense of having an extraordinary spiritual advancenment ? ?

I feel that the energy (vibratory level/spiritual evolution)
of the alchemist strongly affects the different phases of The
Great Work, particularly in the initial phases, where the Stone
in the process of being made requires lots of energy from the
Seed as well as from its "Creator" (alchemist). However, as once
I understood Lapis to say, even without the spiritual advancement
of the operator, something of great value/power could be obtained
since otherwise there was no sense for the secret and allegory
that always accompanied The Royal Art. Besides, I do feel that
not two STONES are necessarily alike with respect to its
potency and capacities.

An interesting subject of discussion would be the different
concepts among the western/eastern traditions with regards to
the meaning of THE WHITE STONE, THE RED STONE, THE ELIXIR
(And even according to the Chinese tradition a MINOR ELIXIR and
a GREAT ELIXIR which was the one that could prolong life ..),
THE QUINTAESSENCE, etc. For example, a RED STONE of the first
Wheel could definetely not have the same purity and consequently
the same potency that the result of the third Wheel .. and even
then, further purifications have been discussed by the Great
Masters. Furthermore, some Masters (for what little I know)
have only reported work with the Stone on certain specific areas
and not in others. For example, FLAMEL seems to have work only
on the metallic transmutatory properties of THE STONE but not on
the manufacture of the MEDICINE, which Paracelsus seems to have
dominated quite well.

So what was/is the final objective of an alchemist ? ? Which is
the ultimate purification of THE STONE possible ?? Many things
have been said about it. Some have argued that in its ultimate
level of purification (and for this stage I do feel that the
Alchemist MUST have evolved at the same time/level that THE STONE)
and if he decided to ingest/drink it ... a total transmutation
would occur .... His physical/spiritual bodies would be transmutated
becoming an integral part of the TRUE ADEPTHOOD, and breaking the
necessity for the cycle of incarnations ? ? This same type of
experience have been reported in different times and cultures.

Final initiation was many times compared or illustrated as a potent
beam of white inefable light that would pass through the body of the
seeker, bringing as a result one of three things ... :
Illumination, Death, or Crazyness, the last two as a result of not
being able to stand the high vibratory frequencies. Were all these
narratives just fables, speculations, etc. ? ? Or was it indeed
ILLUMINATION the final Goal of an alchemist ?? Perhaps illumination
came as a consequence of the two : ingesting THE STONE, to help raise
the vibratory level, AS WELL as the knowledge learn through the path
of Understanding the Work of Nature ...

Just to finish, I will say that I agree with DOUWE that if Illumination
is attained, the body would become somewhat a limit of your endless
possibilities, therefore "prolonged life" whithing the physical vessel
would not be necessarily desired, unless as justified by a specific
"mission" or goal to be achieved, which at that level, should surely
be related to benefiting and being of service to others ...

Your thoughts, opinions and comments (criticisms and all ...) will be
greatly appreciated ! DOUWE, WELCOME TO THE FORUM.

LOVE TO ALL,

ORCIS
[email protected]

"MONTES FIDES MOVETO"

Sun Apr 14 12:56:19 1996
Subject: 0671 20th Century Alchemy-Lenns

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:46:52 -0400
From: photopro

>>Re: that portion that states above "the Stone could be found only as a
>>result of divine favor..." This is true of all the creative genius
>>tangents into "Divine Art". And in reference to my two other posted
>>E-mails today, may I state that I did not mention my agreement in this
>>belief. For Man might elect and strive but without "BLESSINGS/GRACE"
>>there will be hinderance in the processing of Desire / Quest toward
>>Wisdom/Stone/Transmutation.
>>
>> Wisa / PhotoProse
>
>Why do you call yourself PhotoProse, has it for you an alchemical
>significance, do you refer to the preperation of the Prime Matter
>or are you one of those New age types that think that the Alchemical
>process takes place on a transendental level only.
>
>Regards Lenns

I am not New Age. I am a mystic on The Western Path Of Return in the
tradition of Golden Dawn/Rosicrucian/ Masonary/Cabalah (various
spellings are accepted.) This includes Alchemy, Astrology, divination,
music, math., meditation,Tarot, recollection, balance in every day
living, ritual and much more...No way have I mastered these subjects. I
do believe that we do the best we can and continue on... into infinity.
The ultimate can bring a state that is Divine Immortality and True
Wealth but the definations of this state may not be the same for
everyone. Sadly for some, I believe, you can not achieve it by just
going for those goals to achieve eternal life and not transcending
your old ideas about what is True Value. But one can't change TRUTH
and that will prevail.

We all come from a different place, have a different Identity. There
is no judgement. There is respect for all apiration, for all the
tangents into these arts and eventually, as all is one, there will be a
spread of genius (individual tangents into Knowledge and Wisdom).

Therefore I believe that the physical alchemy is do-able but the
Identity of the chemist is of *** prime importance. I also believe
that the Spiritual Ideal whether achieved through any of these or other
tangents not mentioned (i.e. writing/drama/acting/singing/gardening
..name it) can eventually be spiritually uplifting (literally). In my
readings and in some classes taken. there has been mentioned The Stone
Of The Wise as having been made successfully. I forget which book but I
remember the image of success achieved (was it MA Atwood?). So I do
believe this can be done. AS to who can benefit from it. That's a good
question. I also believe that this can be accomplished along a
transcendental spiritual path.

Photoprose is part of my E-Mail address which was shortened to Photopro
due to limitation of number of letters allowed. I am a photographer
who writes inspirational poetry and metaphysical meditational essays.
WISA is my persona name in the Work.( Roots in Wisdom and Vista.)

Thank you for your inquiry. There is not enough room to give all my
thoughts on THE GREAT WORK. But we are all on it - by any name.

WISA

Sun Apr 14 12:56:30 1996
Subject: 0672 Calcination

From: douwe
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:11:18 GMT

I wouldn't mind to discus the topic of calcination, because it has
been my finding that a good share of attention needs to go to Proper
calcination
I am particularly interested in techniques of closed calcination and
as it has been known in Jewish alchemy for instance, and I wondered if
any of you managed to reproduce a similar calcination at home, and if
so, what materials you have used to produce the required effect.

douwe

[email protected]

Sun Apr 14 12:56:39 1996
Subject: 0673 Twentieth Century Alchemy

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 11:19 NZST

Patrick J. Smith, what clear concise statement you made about Fulcanelli.
You are to be congratulated for your clarity of thought. It clearly shows
that Fulcanelli and Champagne are one and the same and the truth appears to
be that the stone was not achieved by any of them (Champagne or his group)
although the mythology surrounding Fulcanelli says otherwise but good
rational detective work wins the day!

Pat zalewski

Sun Apr 14 12:56:49 1996
Subject: 0674 The stone or not the stone

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 11:08 NZST

Okay I'll bite!. Cochren did grow a tree which was not the stone, but
because he grew the Tree he had the stone or knew how to make i,t but since
he died naturally he did not partake in its virtues.Is that what you meant
to say?
The bottom line here is he died a natural death. Now the Inaglasses also
had the stone and described the different versions of it and purportedly
actually brought someone back to life with it. Either they were liars or
nutter or telling the truth. I am not sure which, but, they also died a
natural death. What I am getting it is that we a romantised concept of the
stone and what it stands for. My question is, is the reality of the stone
like the mythology (or truth) surrounding it. Does it prolong life? Now
before everyone jumps on the bandwagon citing platitudes from ancient texts
the next question is has anyone ever see the real stone? Now seeing it and
saying wow! What an alchemist so and so is! The real test to confirm it,
and that is to test it on a live subject near death or an elderly person
who is restored youth. Until that is shown then there is no positive proof
that it is the stone.
Now I am sick of hearing of people who have almost got the stone or in the
last steps of it. I have heard that since I first started studying alchemy.
When talking of the stone you always get the attitude of` I know somone who
has it and I am not going to tell you his or her name'concept That usually
means someone is deluding themselves. If a person claims to have the stone
and is not the youthful looking hermes we expect from somone taking it, then
there is more than agood chance that that person is either lying or in
delusion states of awareness. Personally I believe in romantised concepts
but before excepting the reality of it I'd want to put the end result to
some very thorough testing. Also we must consider that makinga powder that
transmutes lead into gold perhaps (and I say perhaps) is not the same
formula that prolongs life, take Falmmel as an example. He transmuted
everything in sight and made heaps of money then died. Apart from the tales
of him popping up all over the place afterwoods, the powder to transmute did
not help save his life and that of his wife's.
Looking at the Inaglasses again. They died owing money yet they
describe various states of the stone that some texts show they could have
transmuted material and made pots of gold. Personally I think there are a
great many alchemists from the past who have written about the stone but
have never achieved it. Just check the length of the lives of the famous
alchemical writers on the subject of the stone . Now we come to paracelsus
who describes the stone (like many others after him) yet died young also.
Even is he was killed, check the portraits of him and unless I am mistaken
he is partly bald. Now taking the stone would have restored his hair to full
growth and colour? . What i am saying is that a number who have written
about the stone have not really acheived it so it still remains a mystery!

Pat zalewski

Sun Apr 14 22:56:11 1996
Subject: 0675 Calcination

From: Jfruther
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:46:19 -0400

I usualy use two fireproof porcelan dishes, the lower is holding the materia,
the upper is used as the top. For sealing the two dishes, I use two methods:
a) mix ordinary flour with water and seal the dishes from outside whit this
natural glue. This is the traditional jemenitic way.
b) do the same whit clay.
After it is sealed I put it on a ordinary prpoane camping burner and let it
burn for about a day or more.

Sometimes I use moist materia and let it dry in the sun, sometimes I just
burn the alcohol off and then close the dishes.

V.I.T.R.I.O.L.

Sun Apr 14 22:55:35 1996
Subject: 0676 Archibald Cochren

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 14 Apr 96 13:34:06 EDT

Dear Pat,

In case of Archibald Cochren an important point is to be attached. I remember
that an acquaintance of Cochren has seen the philosophical egg on the occasion
of a visit. He emphasizes, that the work has stood in a late stage. Cochren have
noticed, that he expect the stone being perfect in a few weeks or months. This
acquaintance writes in addition, that Cochren couldn't more harvest the fruits
of his work, because he died in the bomb hail at the attack of London. The death
of Cochren thus is not against having completed the stone perhaps still shortly
before his death.

This message is found at the end of a book, whose author and title I cannot
remind. At this passage a further strange event is found by the way. Cochren
have had once a fused phial in the lab, which he wanted to open now. He did not
know indeed, how he could cut off the thick glass neck so, that the flask did
not break up. Completely engaged with this thought he went out. As he returned,
the neck of the flask was neatly and tidily cut off, so that he could move on
with his work. Never Cochren found out, who had cut off the neck of his flask...

Lapis

Sun Apr 14 22:55:48 1996
Subject: 0677 20th Century alchemists

From: douwe
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:54:17 GMT

>>>>Archibald Cochren was also supposed to have made the philosophers stone.
>>>People who visited him saw it growing, but alas he also did not last long.
>>>We have two alchemists who have claimed to have made the stone, and both of
>>>them died under normal circumstances.
>>>There was no prolonging of life here.
>>>I do not think both of them were liars. This seems to pose more questions
>>>than answers.
>>
>>
>>If the ability exists to manufacture the Stone, then you must have
>>mastered the same quality spiritually.
>>If this is the case then death is a welcome change (or better 'an
>>absolute liberation') to you.
>>
>
>Do you mean death of the Philosophical Death?
>

I mean a physical death, after you have died a philosophical death
before.
In a way this kind of death cannot be called death because there is
nothing (not much anyway, and you all should know how reductable the
physical body is) left which can die anymore.

(Hence 'eternal life').
It Is possible to sustain life for a longer amount of time, but why
would you want to when you are consciously aware of a better place?
It is more important to live the time you have in good health, which
you earned by the truth of inner liberation anyway.

douwe

[email protected]

Sun Apr 14 22:55:58 1996
Subject: 0678 Roger Caro's work

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 14 Apr 96 13:34:02 EDT

Dear John,

you asked me: >Was the stone that you wrote about put through three revolutions
of the wheel or only one?<

This is a good consideration. To the best of my knowledge, the work was always
interrupted after the union of the three materials, and after the mixture had
gone through a series of color changes. If one gives together the three
alchemical principles of this work in a hermetically locked flask, so it must be
shaken well. During the first phase of the work the mixture becomes very hot.
The work is quite dangerous, since the flask can explode. Then one digests the
mixture during a ten-day period, whereby it goes through the following colors:
red, brown, black and green black. What was made indeed after this first stage
with the vessel, I don't know. Some time I will ask the concerning people, how
the process was continued.

Your question could explain the failure of the experiments. I have personally
thought quite never about this possible momentous error. Presumably the first
rotation was quite never properly finished. Whether several rotations were made
with the same mixture, I do not know. Perhaps the success would have arisen, if
always the work would not have been interrupted too early, and one would
patiently have digested further.

Thank you very much for your reference!

Lapis

Mon Apr 15 09:52:39 1996
Subject: 0679 Calcination

From:Paul Bartscher
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 15:35:25 MDT

>From: douwe
>Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:11:18 GMT
>I wouldn't mind to discus the topic of calcination, because it has
>been my finding that a good share of attention needs to go to Proper
>calcination
>I am particularly interested in techniques of closed calcination and
>as it has been known in Jewish alchemy for instance, and I wondered if
>any of you managed to reproduce a similar calcination at home, and if
>so, what materials you have used to produce the required effect.
>douwe

Dear douwe,
I have been working with the concept of closed calcinations for a
few years now. I do not understand what you are asking for when you ask
what materials to use to produce results. Do you mean what kind of a set-up
for the operation or what herbs, minerals, etc., to use to make products.
You can use whatever herbs or minerals you desire. I'm not trying
to be obvious. My oppologies.
I am hoping you are asking about equipment or set-up for the opperation.
I attempted a half 500 mL flast as a helmut and a ceramic evaporating dish
as the calcination dish, but this set-up required using a vacuum pump in
order to maintain a draw through the cooling system to the receiver flask.
The results were not as good as I had desired.
I have since modified the design to use a Corning Visionware dish to
replace the ceramic evaporating dish and received some silicone sealant to
temporarily bind the helmut to the Visionware dish. First attempts were
very successful so far. No vacuum pump is necessary and the sealant is
reported to be good up to 200 degrees Celsius with a potential to go to
somewhat higher temps. I am looking for a better luting agent but for now
at least I've got this. If you are interested in a better design
description of the set-up and information as to where to get some of the
required glassware, send me a note at: Al-Kemi, 1807 Second Steet, Suite 9,
Santa Fe, NM, USA 87505. Actually, all you would have to do is send to our
email address: [email protected].
We are putting together a catalog of this and other alchemical glassware for
interested parties and it is available upon request. Our intent is to have
the catalog available over our fax line - hopefully this will be ready next
month. Also, if any alchemists are passing through Santa Fe, give
us a call at 1-505-988-7315, stop by see our "operation," at our lab, etc.
(have some wine?)
For now you may have to bring your own bottle.

Zum Leben Hoch,

Marcus, Paul, und Micah

Mon Apr 15 09:52:50 1996
Subject: 0680 20th Century Alchemists

From: douwe
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:12:16 GMT

>> If the ability exists to manufacture the Stone, then you must
>> have mastered the same quality spiritually.
>> If this is the case then death is a welcome change (or better 'an
>> absolute liberation') to you.
>DOUWE seems to argue that to manufacture THE STONE the operator
>must have achieved "the same quality spiritually". Do you mean
>that in order to make the stone you must be illuminated in the
>sense of having an extraordinary spiritual advancenment ? ?

That is correct, although I wouldn't call the spiritual advancement
extraordinary...

The stone possesses a certain quality about which can be read at many
places...possessing these same qualities in a spiritual way, enable
you to perform the art in the noble way.

The 'not so noble way', is the way of inspiration...but still even
this is a gift which should be regarded as a precious one, because it
is like a map for various spiritual landscapes, of which the endgoul
is the most absolute enlightenment.
To my opinion this is the one and only purpose of alchemy... it is a
research into the higher laws of nature, trough which one may gain
knowledge to leave these very same laws of nature.
Every other purpose is a waste of precious energy which could be
devoted to more noble causes.

'The proper preparation is a eye opener and a glorification to 'the
way', and doesn't have anything to do with proof as sometimes has been
claimed'

>I feel that the energy (vibratory level/spiritual evolution)
>of the alchemist strongly affects the different phases of The
>Great Work, particularly in the initial phases, where the Stone
>in the process of being made requires lots of energy from the
>Seed as well as from its "Creator" (alchemist).

The term 'without putting on hands' applies here.
All the energy that You put in it comes from you, and this will make a
product as 'perfect' or 'non-perfect' as you are yourself.
The energy of the Seed exists fully beyond our energy, we may conduct
the energy, but then only to transfigurate, or transmutate ourself.
(Once you have been transfigurated in threefold way, by the radiation
of this seed then you will be able to conduct the energy in a perfect
harmonious way.)
This same omnipresent energy will lead the process in the flask for as
long you follow its ways naturally.
Even the word energy has been chosen badly... it is more that it is
beyond energy... and this is what makes It hard to catch with
matter...

<...>

>So what was/is the final objective of an alchemist ? ? Which is
>the ultimate purification of THE STONE possible ?? Many things
>have been said about it. Some have argued that in its ultimate
>level of purification (and for this stage I do feel that the
>Alchemist MUST have evolved at the same time/level that THE STONE)
>and if he decided to ingest/drink it ... a total transmutation
>would occur .... His physical/spiritual bodies would be transmutated
>becoming an integral part of the TRUE ADEPTHOOD, and breaking the
>necessity for the cycle of incarnations ? ? This same type of
>experience have been reported in different times and cultures.

This will only possible and useful to the already spiritually
advanced... and then to give a strong foothold...
Taking something externally will not liberate in any kind of way, it
may only ease the process.

<...>
>if Illumination is attained, the body would become somewhat a limit of your endless
>possibilities, therefore "prolonged life" whithing the physical vessel
>would not be necessarily desired, unless as justified by a specific
>"mission" or goal to be achieved, which at that level, should surely
>be related to benefiting and being of service to others ...
>Your thoughts, opinions and comments (criticisms and all ...) will be
>greatly appreciated ! DOUWE, WELCOME TO THE FORUM.
>

Thanks for your welcome.

douwe.

[email protected]

Mon Apr 15 09:52:59 1996
Subject: 0681 20th Century alchemists

From: al4302
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:38:19 +0100

>>If the ability exists to manufacture the Stone, then you must have
>>mastered the same quality spiritually.
>>If this is the case then death is a welcome change (or better 'an
>>absolute liberation') to you.
>>
>>douwe
>>
>>
>
>Do you mean death of the Philosophical Death?

Sorry. I meant to say death or Philosophical Death?

Mon Apr 15 09:53:09 1996
Subject: 0682 The stone or not the stone

From: al4302
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:21:21 +0100

At 13:08 14/04/96 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Pat Zalewski
>Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 11:08 NZST
>
>Okay I'll bite!. Cochren did grow a tree which was not the stone, but
>because he grew the Tree he had the stone or knew how to make i,t but since
>he died naturally he did not partake in its virtues.Is that what you meant
>to say?

The fact that he died a natural death sugests, if true, that he did not
make his own medicine. But if this is the case he would have to have had
someones, probably his teacher's powder. The fact that he grew a tree is
for me beyound doubt.

>The bottom line here is he died a natural death. Now the Inaglasses also
>had the stone and described the different versions of it and purportedly
>actually brought someone back to life with it. Either they were liars or
>nutter or telling the truth.

I have never consider these people as bonafide

>I am not sure which, but, they also died a
>natural death. What I am getting it is that we a romantised concept of the
>stone and what it stands for. My question is, is the reality of the stone
>like the mythology (or truth) surrounding it. Does it prolong life? Now
>before everyone jumps on the bandwagon citing platitudes from ancient texts
>the next question is has anyone ever see the real stone? Now seeing it and
>saying wow! What an alchemist so and so is! The real test to confirm it,
>and that is to test it on a live subject near death or an elderly person
>who is restored youth. Until that is shown then there is no positive proof
>that it is the stone.

Have you considered that the stone may just slow age down and that the
effects may not be imediatly apparent. In my own experiance, I started
out very skeptical but as I progress I find the truth to be stranger
than fiction.

>Now I am sick of hearing of people who have almost got the stone or in the
>last steps of it. I have heard that since I first started studying alchemy.
>When talking of the stone you always get the attitude of` I know somone who
>has it and I am not going to tell you his or her name'concept That usually
>means someone is deluding themselves.

Yes but sometimes they maybe telling the truth.

>If a person claims to have the stone
>and is not the youthful looking hermes we expect from somone taking it, then
>there is more than agood chance that that person is either lying or in
>delusion states of awareness. Personally I believe in romantised concepts
>but before excepting the reality of it I'd want to put the end result to
>some very thorough testing. Also we must consider that makinga powder that
>transmutes lead into gold perhaps (and I say perhaps) is not the same
>formula that prolongs life, take Falmmel as an example. He transmuted
>everything in sight and made heaps of money then died. Apart from the tales
>of him popping up all over the place afterwoods, the powder to transmute did
>not help save his life and that of his wife's.

The medicine is only for the one who makes it.

How do you think that all this relates to the Philosophical Death. The main
problem is that alcemists will not be drawn on this subject, the truth of the
matter seems to be something they gaurd most closely. I have some reason to
think that they sometimes fake there death but i'm not sure.

Mon Apr 15 09:53:18 1996
Subject: 0683 20th Century Alchemy-Lenns

From: al4302
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:08:41 +0100

Wisa ,

Thankyou for your upright response to my inquiry. In general
I would agree with you except that perhaps I think that Alchemy
includes Golden Dawn/Rosicrucian/ Masonary/Cabalah :-) It is at the
very core of western tradition ( I note that you include Masonry
something lost on many. Along with there 12th Century forebearers they
are often overlooked.)and has given rise to many branches including the
Christian Church it's just that some branches are closer to the trunk
and the trunk springs forth from the root of all things.
The lable Photopro is interesting, as a photographer you will be aware
that certain metals absorb light and will retain an image. Have you not
considered that this may have an alchemical significance.
We know from recent research on the Turin Shroud that the properties of
these metals was know long before the 19th Century.

Regards

Mon Apr 15 09:53:28 1996
Subject: 0684 WPG is not the philosopher's stone!

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 14 Apr 96 19:06:33 EDT

Dear Tim,

you wrote:

>In my opinion Hudson may be "pure 20th century", but pure 20th
century fraud and/or delusion.<

I am not so sure whether a so sharp judgment is justified. I have examined the
patent of Hudson and studied further documents of his research. It seems very
probable that Hudson has described a novel state of matter. The physical data
are quite convincing in part, though I mean, they would have to be seriously
examined by independent laboratories.

I understand your dislike opposite the Hudson gang, if one considers the
exaggerated enthusiasm of many disciples of Hudson. However I recommend you to
be a little more tolerant. Never forget: It can only be helped whom, who wants
to be helped! If somebody especially is inclined to the Hudson work, so this may
correspond to his current state of development. He must and will pick up his
experience, which will teach him, that there are still other and perhaps much
better things. You must distinguish between the right at the Hudson material and
the nonsense, which by Hudson and especially eager disciples has been spread for
marvels.

What bothers me at the monatomic gold is the fact, that it should have a white
color in pure form. If one considers the further characteristics of this gold
and compares it to the characteristics of the philosopher's stone, so the great
differences become evident. The philosopher's stone is not white! The monatomic
gold is not the philosopher's stone! You may therefore quietly return again into
your lab and follow up your own works...

Consider well: Everybody is right somewhere and somehow. Therefore also at
Hudson something will be found, which is worth to know. I suppose that monatomic
gold could be valuable as raw material for alchemical works. But the
philosopher's stone is not found with the discovery of the monatomic state of
matter. Perhaps the whole story can teach us, how we can better understand real
alchemical processes.

Lapis

Mon Apr 15 09:53:37 1996
Subject: 0685 Archibald Cochren

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 96 12:03 NZST

Thanks for the info Beat. I must have had it wrong, for I thought Cochren
survived the war and died of natural causes.

Pat zalewski

Mon Apr 15 09:53:46 1996
Subject: 0686 20th Century alchemists

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 96 12:17 NZST

I think that if somone had made the stone the first thing he or she would
have done was test it to see if it was the stone. The only person left to
test it on without the probability of doing harm (in case it was not the
stone) is the creator. If the alchemist tested it on him/herself then they
would have to do it over a period of time and that test, if positive would
produce good physical results if the all the concepts associcated to the
stone that have been bandied about are correct. A youthful appearance
(includinga good head of hair if you are bald) would be one. Unfortunately
though some of the best geniuses of say music were the worst type of people.
I am yet unsure about the alchemist who produces the stone to be of high
spiritual worth. I have seen too many people produce a vertible miracle l in
their respective chosen fields ,and yet even to a dumbdcluck, their
evolvement on the spiritual plane appeared little. Check out some of the
behaviour of our best rock musicians who live hard and some of the beautiful
gems they have produced. Painters are yet another field where a real
ethereal quality comes through but the person in many instances the person
who creates this type of effect should have been locked up. I have seen the
opposite also. Many people who would be a model to live by end up creating
nothing significant at all (including alchemists) again another paradox.

Pat zalewski

Mon Apr 15 09:53:59 1996
Subject: 0687Growing trees

From: Gilbert Arnold
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:58:58 -0400

There is at least 3 ways to "grow trees" in the laboratory that I am aware of
that do not require a "Philosopher's Stone" to do so. To whoever is
interested, I would suggest a review of the "Heaven of the Philosopher's",
the RAM version, the metallic PON course and a copy of John French's Art
of distillation along with Newton's Clavis. It is a long painfull work, and in
my opinion, unless you are very skilled at not getting poisoned by mercury
fumes, not worth the trouble. Please do not ingest the result. According to
the "Heaven of the Philosopher's it is only yet another seed. I also recall
that someone mentioned to me a way to do a similar thing with Iron.

Mon Apr 15 09:54:11 1996
Subject: 0688 Twentieth Century Alchemy

From: Jerry Bujas
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 22:36:36 -0500

> From: al4302
> If Fulcanelli really was someone other than Champagne and
> >yet survives, as some care to believe, it's difficult to understand
> >how he could have let all his old friends and colleagues die when he
> >had the power to save them.
> >-Patrick
>
> The tincture is only medicine for the one who makes it.
>

This is an interesting comment. I would like to know your opinion
on whether someone could use someone else's powder to carry out
the transmutation. I understand that only an initiate can make
the Stone, but anyone else can use it for the projection, if he
knows how, as many reports testify. Why should the properties
of the tincutre be so radically different from the powder?
Could you please elaborate?

[email protected]

Mon Apr 15 09:54:20 1996
Subject: 0689 Voie de CARO

From: ducreux thierry
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:21:59 +0200

The stone obtain after the first rotation is "the false prophet"
After a first multiplication this is normally the stone.
After three multiplications you can have the quintessence (le sang du dragon).

These are CARO's terms and you can find them in :

Appocalypse revelation alchimique - Jean de clairefontaine.

If anyone has experimented this way you can write me :
[email protected]

Mon Apr 15 09:54:31 1996
Subject: 0690 Making of the Stone

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:56:30 GMT

Calhhh/ORCIS writes:

>>>...,where the Stone in the process of being made requires lots of energy
from the Seed as well as from its "Creator" (Alchemist).<<<

Can you alaborate on that a bit further. Where do you get the seed from if
not from within the Alchemist?

Petra Christiane Gottlieb
[email protected]
---
WO KEIN LIEB, DA IST KEIN KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Mon Apr 15 09:54:42 1996
Subject: 0691 20th Century alchemists - Fulcanelli

From: Peter Van den Bossche
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:31:30 +0100

Following the discussion on Fulcanelli on this list, I can recommend the
excellent book on the matter (in French): Fulcanelli devoile by Genevieve
Dubois.
This book attributes the great works published under the pseudonyme
Fulcanelli to a team of three: J. Champagne, E. Canseliet and P. Dujols. It
contains valuable information on these personalities, as well as on R.
Schwaller de Lubicz.
The importance of Fulcanelli's works for the development of the alchemical
movement in the 20th century is clearly recognised.

Peter

Mon Apr 15 11:40:31 1996
Subject: 0692 The Philosophers Stone

From: Jason Johns
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 02:16:53 PDT

Just out of curiousity, has anyone though what the "Eternal Life" the
Philosophers Stone really is???

Perhaps it does not mean physical life?

Mon Apr 15 16:03:04 1996
Subject: 0693 The stone or not the stone

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:43:29 -0500 (EST)

In regard to what the stone does or doesn't do (assuming it
does something). Perhaps it has a positive effect on health,
and prolongs life, but does not fully restore youth or avoid
death. This would make it even more difficult to say who
did or did not have it. Maybe a person who lives until 85
took the stone and without it would have died at 60. That
sort of thing.

Let's face it, those who do know will not say, so we each have
to discover this (or try to) ourselves.

Regards,

- Peggy -
[email protected]

Mon Apr 15 16:03:15 1996
Subject: 0694 Twentieth Century Alchemy

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:17:45 -0500 (EST)

>From: Pat Zalewski

>Patrick J. Smith, what clear concise statement you made about Fulcanelli.
>You are to be congratulated for your clarity of thought. It clearly shows
>that Fulcanelli and Champagne are one and the same and the truth appears to
>be that the stone was not achieved by any of them (Champagne or his group)
>although the mythology surrounding Fulcanelli says otherwise but good
>rational detective work wins the day!

You being sarcastic, right?

FWIW, I didn't see any words that proved anything one way or the other.

Regards,

- Peggy -
[email protected]

Mon Apr 15 16:03:25 1996
Subject: 0695 20th Century alchemists - Ingaleses

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:34:10 -0500 (EST)

Orcis:
>Notwithstanding, I feel that having somekind of a medicine, if they indeed
>were able to obtain the Stone, they should not have been in the poor
>state of health that is reported they died in, as per Tim's info. One
>thing is to choose not to prolong life, and other, supposedly having the
>knowledge that they did, to suffer the consequences of all those kind
>of diseases. I truly believe in personal freedom to choose using or not
>a given medicine, but to suffer innecesarily just does not make sense, at
>least to me ... But those are just my thoughts from this distant point
>of reference.

We really are not in a position to judge. As Rawn pointed out, an
adept may have reasons to choose suffering; reasons we are not in
a position to understand. At the same time, I can't help but guess
why someone who could save themselves would willingly choose suffering,
and my guess is that it has to do with compassion.

There is something about compassion that I think becomes a very-big-deal
once a person reaches the point where they could become an adept. I
can't say why, but I think its important. It makes no sense to me why
someone would willingly choose suffering, because I most definitely
would not, but if someone did do this my guess is it has something to
do with compassion or learning compassion. (Either that or I'm still
full of my childhood catholic programming and don't know it.)

This is not to say I think they had the stone (or didn't). I cannot
judge that, just speculating on why an adept would choose suffering.

Regards,

- Peggy -
[email protected]

Mon Apr 15 19:55:20 1996
Subject: 0696 20th Century alchemists

From:OISPEGGY
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:03:00 -0500 (EST)

Pat Zalewski:
>Many people who would be a model to live by end up creating
>nothing significant at all (including alchemists) again another paradox.

Maybe this shows that being is more important than creating?

Regards,

- Peggy -

Mon Apr 15 19:55:29 1996
Subject: 0697 Fulcanelli

From: ducreux thierry
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:14:17 +0200

For the pseudonyme of FULCANNELI from the book of DUBOIS :

- le mystere des catedrales : Schwaller de Lubicz (essentiellement)
- les demeures philosophaes : DUJOLS (essentiellement) avec CHAMPAGNE

For this way you can find in a french book la chrysopee de DUJOLS a very good
description (en clair).
Thierry.

Mon Apr 15 19:55:41 1996
Subject: 0698 20th Century Alchemy

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:33:27 -0500

*Is this kind of personal vitriol really necessary? And your ill-defined
term "New age types" (insert "satanic" in another context maybe?) implies
that transcendental aspects of alchemy are the result of some recent fad.
Is this true?

>From: al4302
>Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:23:23 +0100
>Why do you call yourself PhotoProse, has it for you an alchemical
>significance, do you refer to the preperation of the Prime Matter
>or are you one of those New age types that think that the Alchemical
>process takes place on a transendental level only.
>
>Regards Lenns

Mon Apr 15 19:56:22 1996
Subject: 0699 Alchemy - Golden Dawn Statement

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:43:25 -0500

>From: Pat Zalewski
>Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 11:45 NZST
>Regarding the post and Golden Dawn Alchemy.
> In the old order they did not teach the practical but encouraged
>adepts to apply the Z2 formulea to all alchemical studies. In short, they
>wanted to do full ritual with alchemical work . Today however, there are GD
>temples popping up all over the place and each one applies the system
>differently. As far as the original GD went it was the application of magic
>that was important, the practical was often left to ones own devices to sort
>out. An ideal situation would be for the students to study a course such as
>the Philosphers of nature and use the GD ritual applications to it. At any
>rate it is good to see that some temples are doing more than simply applying
>magical studies but are emplying more practical alchemical methods as well,
>and this makes the GD system more balanced than before.

***Pat--wouldn't you say that a vital influence of Alchemy in the Golden
Dawn and its various offshoots is the use of its symbolism/inconographic
dimension?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Apr 15 19:56:31 1996
Subject: 0700 Acemannon

From: Byrun Fox
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:30:10 -0700

To whom it may interest.

I am currently manufacturing Acemannon. anyone interested can find it at
www.vru.com and click on white gold.

Byrun Fox.

[email protected]