Alchemy Forum 1051-1100

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 1051-1100.
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Wed Jun 12 20:38:16 1996
Subject: 1051 Tarocchi de Montegna

Further to Rawn's enquiry, I wrote a short article for a past issue of the Hermetic Journal on the Tarrochi of Mantegna. I will try to find time over the next week to place it onto the alchemy web site.

Adam McLean

Thu Jun 13 08:41:10 1996
Subject: 1052 Science/magic

From: Rex Phillips
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:12:15 -0700

To Peggy and AyinDaath,

>>All people enter the study of the occult for the purpose of power -sexual,
>>financial, physical, etc. It doesn't matter who - anyone who says that the
>>reason they entered the study for the purpose of raising themselves to
>>higher status is lying.

>Not me. I started it in order to raise myself and I am not lying.
>Actually, early on I would have chucked my esoteric studies in
>a minute if I could just live a simple, happy life. Now I'm
>hooked though. My point is that not everyone starts in order to
>get power.
>- Peggy -

This is a classic clash between a sort of realism (a la Freud maybe) and
a certain altruism and/or idealism. Peggy is deluding herself with those
rosy tinted glasses and AyinDaath is fooling himself with an equally
limiting pov.

Peggy, power is everywhere. Sex and many other such forces we do not
have control over - yet these forces shape our lives in very fundamental
primal ways. You seem to be deluding yourself into thinking that you had
more actual choice and free agency in this matter. Moreover, you can't
bear to admit that some of your motivations are less than lily white. If
you are human, and I assume you are, you were "hardwired" with certain
power/sex drives like all of us were. Freud, and others, would have us
believe, and I for one can see the occassional accuracy of Freud's
arguments, that these forces are working in quite a bit of the time.
Sorry Peg, you're not gonna get away from these forces so easily.

AyinDaath, though power is indeed everywhere, there are also certain
times in our life where we are free to make decisions which aren't so
intertwined with power. I can imagine a point in someone's life,
probably later on in life around 30 let's say, where one has already won
ones self a satisfactory amount of power and one can now pursue a
decision without being totally and utterly chained to these blind
forces. Sure, under a Crowleyan gloss (with which I am very
sympathetic), the next action we undertake even after having secured
ourselves some power, will be to in one way or another gain more power
since all that we do is a matter of Will, but our Will need not always
be seen best through the solitary lens of Power- just as well we could
soften our view and see Love directing all our actions (one big orgasmic
love feast, explosion after explosion, undulation after undulation, two
uniting themselves to lose themselves in the perfection of a third,
etc.).

"This world is a monster of energy without beginning and without end."
- Nietzsche in Will to Power

matthew phillips

Thu Jun 13 08:41:26 1996
Subject: 1053 Science/magic

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 12:20 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

>*both Dummett and Talbot I found via Cynthia Giles' flawed but pretty
>decent Tarot: History, Mystery and Lore. The Dummett came out in 1981. I'm
>not sure he necessarily misses the bus on science. It is a large area, hard
>to generalize about. His point I think is that Magical systems were not the
>basis for parlor games or telephone help lines. Your point is that there is
>some science being done today which suggests synchronicity (and other
>theories) as a way to explain events such as "divination" which are related
>but not causal. Giles and others suggest that perhaps science and magic (or
>alchemy) might be coming full circle, the tail back in the mouth perhaps?
>-G.Leake

Yes George, I think Giles is right.

Thu Jun 13 08:41:35 1996
Subject: 1054 Science/magic

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:54:10 -0700
From: Clark Stillman

>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:05:30 -0500 (EST)
>From: OISPEGGY
>
>>[email protected]
>>All people enter the study of the occult for the purpose of power - sexual,
>>financial, physical, etc. It doesn't matter who - anyone who says that the
>>reason they entered the study for the purpose of raising themselves to
>>higher status is lying.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is essentially true, as far as it goes. Where it stops, though, is in
realizing that that which drives one to power, control, etc., is what is
called in advaita vedanta, ahamkara, which is the false self---the
appropriated light of the Self, appropriated by the ego. So, it's true that
that is one of the impelling forces.

However, there is also the love of truth, beauty and Man's true
nature---Consciousness, Knowledge, Happiness---the qualities of the spirit,
that draws one to such work. It is the same in the study of alchemy.

I'm off my soap box now. Thank you.

Regards,

Clark Stillman

Thu Jun 13 08:41:44 1996
Subject: 1055 Science/magic

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:05:25 +0000
From: A'yin Da'ath

>*I'd like to see your evidence for such a conclusion. How you can claim to
>know the hearts and minds of others seems like sheer folly.

>*personally I think you're projecting personal biases into it. Do you know
>about the concept of theurgy? What is the essence of the lesson taught in
>the Faust legend? What is the purpose for finding the Stone or turning base
>matter into Gold? If you say its for selfish reasons, then *you have
>missed the point*. This is one of the main reasons, people, why solid
>grounding in philosophy is necessary.

My point was that I BELIEVE everyone enters into study of the occult in
search of something impure, in search of some sort of power over others, and
after a while of study they are after something completely different (ahah!
Alchemy again. Impure to pure). I was after sexual power, and now I'm after
something radically more important, in other words, true attainment. I
learned, along the way, that sex is meaningless compared to the things that
I've experienced. I guess my point is that no one gets into the occult for
'helping mankind, raising my spirit to attainment.' NO act is entirely
unselfish. Let's say you give your house to the poor. What do you get in
return? A feeling that you've done something (worthwhile or not will be left
to see when you realize you have no where to sleep tonight, and the low is
-23).
A lot of people get angry at this, simply because most of them like
to think of themselves as being pure of heart. They like to trick themselves
into thinking that they're somehow better than the rest of mankind because
they study Magick, or alchemy, or what not. They're 'superior' because they
have felt unbridled forces or communed with spirits or puzzled out ancient
riddles, and they did it all 'for the service of humanity.' But they're just
fooling themselves. At all times a person should remember that they're no
better than the four year old that drew all over their daddy's copy of Liber
777.

I think, mayhaps, that I've angered some of you. And I suppose you have a
right to be angered by some ignorant little man on the other end of a string
of telephone lines, who does nothing but pretends to be 'superior' himself.
And to that extent, I'm sorry. I'm sure you all are innocent of the crime of
selfishness.

I don't know about you all, but I'm not in it for utopia, for helping my
fellow man and all that jazz. I'm in it for me. Because I like the way I
feel after discovering what the hell CHINAAS means via QBLH, because I like
the feel of energy around me when I perform a ritual. And maybe that makes
me a pretty damn selfish bastard. But at least I'll admit, that, as a human,
I'm a selfish creature.

X
[email protected]

Thu Jun 13 08:41:53 1996
Subject: 1056 Plant mutations/communication

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1980 06:03:04 -0700
From: Morgan Saletta

>It wasn't much of a discussion since the original poster never
responded.

So, lets continue on a slighty diferent vein, if you don't mind, and as you
expressed interest in the fungus line of conversation.

Communication with plants is something I would have written off a couple of
years ago, but since I have had several experiences and read opinions which
lead me to think that it is indeed possible, and perhaps inevitable in
achieving a higher level of consciousness.

The fact that animal life is dependant on the transformative powers of
plants (transforming inorganic matter and photon energy into food energy)
leads to a complex relationship between plants and animals. Insects are
lured to plants which "disguise themselves" as the opposite sex: this seems
to me to be a very simple synbolic system. Smells lure us to flowers. Fruit
is aesthetically pleasing. All of this seems to be a sort of communication.

What of medications derived from plants, or direct consumption of plants
which lead to some altered state of mind or body. To what end have some
plants evolved alchaloids so closely resembling neurotransmitters? Does the
action of breaking down a plant (transforming it) in our bodies open
ourselves to a fusion with the plant essence?

My own experiences with certain fungus suggest that there is a message of
sorts in the molecular structure of psilocybin which can result in direct
experience of the oneness of plant, mineral, and animal.

Wasson suggests that mind altering plants were perhaps the catalyst for the
spiritual awakening of humankind: could this awakening be part of a larger
directive towards increasing self-awareness in the world?

For those out their who think that "drugs" are not needed, I would suggest
that they re-evaluate that position. Plant medicines are important in the
furthering of the evolution of both body and mind, and in terms of raising
the potential of the human mind, I can think of no better transformative
agent, or key, than one which works at the molecular level. Of course, no
medication is a substitute for thinking, meditation and spiritual exercise.
However, our body is a laboratory, and we are seeking its transformation,
and molecular agents must certainly be included in our tool chest.

Thu Jun 13 08:42:07 1996
Subject: 1057 Fungus - Kombucha tea

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1980 05:39:02 -0700
From: Morgan Saletta

Dear Mark,

The kombucha you are speaaking about is, I believe, what is vulgarly called
"Manchurian Mushroom Tea" here in California, and is reputed to have
longevity effects. I would like to hear about how you have used it, and if
this is not an appropriate forum, please mail me at [email protected]. I
currently have a culture, but am moving to Paris in August, so if the offer
still stands, maybe I'll request some then.

Morgan Saletta

Thu Jun 13 08:42:17 1996
Subject: 1058 Search

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:35:26 +0000
From: A'yin Da'ath

>Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1980 03:24:56 -0700
>From: Morgan Saletta
>Is consciousness as manifest in organic life which arises from inorganic
>material the goal of the alchemical process. At what level consciousness.
>Universal? Are we merely a system of mirrors with which the universe can
>look at itself?

Whoa whoa whoa, since when have we been living in a 'uni'-verse? Rather, I
would say, that these are multiverses. Each individual has their own
multiverse, which is itself a multi-directional and instatic system of
points, including the observer. And if conciousness manifest from organic
material is the goal, what now? What are we? Are we discussing a higher
level of conciousness, and if so, how is this possible? Are there really
levels of conciousness, and if so, what are they?

The goal of alchemy is the transformation of base material into something
higher, of a greater level. The questions arrise in that we do not know what
it is a higher level of. Is it material? Is it spiritual? What are we
attempting to accomplish?

X
[email protected]

Thu Jun 13 08:42:23 1996
Subject: 1059 Science/magic

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:35:32 +0000
From: A'yin Da'ath

>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 15:08 NZST
>From: Pat Zalewski
>
>George
>Thanks for posting that clip by Dummett. I am not sure when he wrote it, but
>by todays science he missed the bus. Prediction or Divination is very
>closely allied with Quantum physics. Basically it says that since everything
>happens in strings (see superstring theory) and bunches it can be predicted.

On this note, I'll add something that's got the Quantum Physicists
be-fuddled. I've forgotten who first performed it, but...

OK. Now when you shoot two photons in different directions, one will travel
like a wave, and the other like a particle. Also, when a photon is shot
through a hole in say, paper, it changes and displays the qualities of a
wave. So an experiment was set up, where one photon was shot one way, and
passed through that hole, and the other would just go on. Guess what
happened. When the particle changed to a wave, the other photon changed to
particle.

Now the thing that's REALLY got the physicist stuck is this - no energy was
transferred between the photons. And according to science up until this
point, all information MUST be conveyed by energy (energy, also, is matter.
Think - electrons make energy, but they are also components of the atom,
part of the so-called base structur of matter). So HOW in the hell did one
photon know what the other was doing? The only possible answer is that
information is NOT stored, conveyed, or somehow directly affected by energy.

Just a little telepathy, then?

X
[email protected]

Thu Jun 13 08:42:32 1996
Subject: 1060 Where to begin?

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:43:15 -1000

Where to begin ?
Find a really good library and simply survey the alchemical
materials. Also check the bibiographies of any texts which interest you.
It is overwhelming to hope for any significant degree of understanding
when first starting alchemical exploration. Understanding is gradually
distilled from many texts and many readings.
Very often you may read what seems to be an extremely obtuse writing
and then days, weeks or even months later a light will go on in your mind
and you will grasp a deeper understanding. Rely upon your own intuitions
and insights even though they may seem to contradict some of the
information which you have collected. Enen though alchemy is presented as
being "scientific" much of the writings are rendered in the language of
symbol and it is in the contemplation of the various symbols that "truth"
is gradually introduced
into your conscious awareness.
The first step in taming the mind is to move past the sensation of
being overwhelmed. Be patient and curious and allow the writings to "work
on you" rather than burden yourself with the immediate need to
"understand". Simply read what comes into your hands and you will be
guided to the next step, as if by magic!

Thu Jun 13 23:40:23 1996
Subject: 1061 Where to begin?

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 15:40:24 +0100 (BST)
From: D.R.Williams

Thanks for your prompt reply to my query "Where to Begin" (message No.1048).
My full e-mail address is given below. Looking forward to reading your
reply. Regards,
David R. Williams
Dpt. Welsh History
UCNW
BANGOR
Arfon
Wales
[email protected]

Thu Jun 13 23:43:40 1996
Subject: 1062 Tarocchi de Montegna

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:47:58 -0500
From: Thomas Izaguirre

>From: RawnClark
>Joel mentions, re Trojani --
>
>>He wrote "Le Tarot de Montagna, commentaire alchimique" (Edition A.
>>Leydoux, Paris)
>
>Does any one know if there's an English translation of this? Are there any
>French/English speakers out there who have read this book and would be
>willing to speak with me about it (in English)? Has any one out there
>actively studied the Tarocchi del Mantegna? I was recently gifted a set of
>the beautiful 1980 Italian reprint (cards) and am just discovering its wealth
>of alchemical symbolism. I'd really like to correspond with someone who has
>studied these images and compare notes.
>Many thanks,
> Rawn Clark

In the Main Gallery of the Art Institute of Chicago are two master
templates; sketches from which an engraver or wood cutter would make dies,
from the E-Series Tarrochi entitled "The Ten Firmaments," circa 1465. They
are entitled
Jupitero and Saturno, depicting allegories of the mythic references. I got
a crude picture of the latter, which I had made into a GIF with some
PhotoShop manipulation. I do not have it but I did do a rendering of it in
scratchboard,
if you would be interesting in me making a GIF of that. Please let me know.

Sincerely

Thomas Izaguirre

Thu Jun 13 23:42:46 1996
Subject: 1063 Trojanis

Thu, 13 Jun 96 10:54:55 -0400
From: seybold

> Now, I remember that Jean-Pierre Bonnerot had become, a few years ago, the
> president of the Society devoted to the works of Josephin Peladan. We

Claude,

Do you have any more information about this society? Do you have their address?
Was Josephin Peladan connected with alchemy? I thought he was more concerned
with theater and the arts and occult novels.

Thanks for any information,

John Seybold
email: [email protected]

Thu Jun 13 23:42:59 1996
Subject: 1064 Tarocchi de Montegna

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:49:44 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

>From: RawnClark
>Does any one know if there's an English translation of this?

*not that I know of

>Has any one out there
>actively studied the Tarocchi del Mantegna?

*yes. Quite a few scholars have. There's detailed study of it in Stuart
Kaplan's Encyclopedia of Tarot and Michael Dummett's Game of Tarot, two of
the top books on the subject.

*bringing this back to the subject of alchemy, what lacks in the study of
tarot is a systemized study of the original symbolism and its links
alchemical emblems and imagery present in European art.

>I was recently gifted a set of
>the beautiful 1980 Italian reprint (cards) and am just discovering its wealth
>of alchemical symbolism. I'd really like to correspond with someone who has
>studied these images and compare notes.

*which deck? (please email me privately)

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Fri Jun 14 09:36:41 1996
Subject: 1065 Homunculus

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:24:29 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe

>Dear forum members,
> I would like some information about Paracelsus's
>concept of the homunculus. From the physical point of view, does he
>really means creating a little living humanoid?
> Is it an allegory for the
>Stone? What is the spiritual meaning of this concept?
>Would you please excuse this elementary naive question came from
>a non-iniciated person. The concept of homunculus seems mysterious enough
>to me to start a discussion about it. So I would like your opinion on
>this subject.
>
>Fraternally
>Patrice Coulombe

It is not a human thing that is created but a spiritual being within yourself.
(there may be something created being not unlike an elemental, but I
wouldn't want to meddle with this)
Talking of sperm he means retaining the sexual energy which will become
creative in different ways by building up the brain for instance.

The Homunculus, is a spiritual entity which one may first know as something
being half yourself but being more spiritual than yourself as you were.
It is said that the homunculus knows anything, and this is because of its
transparency, or better, because; the spiritual side of yourself is not
dense you are able to penetrate other worlds by which you may observe, and
know them.
This Homunculus may in some ways be compared with the 'Ka' or the 'Etheric
double', although it is not the same... (Leaving your body with your
etherical double makes you 'seem' bigger, while the Homunculus feels as
something like a small bright field of knowledge where you may turn to by an
inward focussing... leaving your body is even the opposite of this).
The Homunculus has to be fed with human blood... this is a different way of
saying that your blood will be changed (purified) in this part of the
process, by which it is made more spiritual (the soul is in the blood, and
has to be cleansed from all the extraneous tendencies, so that it will
become polarized upon high).

The number 40 comes in here (in Paracelsus his talk about the Homunculus he
says about a putrefaction of 40 days in a curcubit for instance) a lot
as well, and it denotes the timespan of transformation of the soul... like 40
days/years in a desert full of temptations and such.
(When it comes to the desert I like the idea that the number 40 is the
number of the Hebrew letter Mem, or Maim, and that this letter means
'water', so after the 40 days ended the desert (fallen dry matter, or desert
of life) becomes an true oasis of life, ... just my own thought...)

The Homunculus may be taken as an inner child (not inner childishness) which
has to grow to a full spiritual body.

douwe.

Fri Jun 14 09:36:49 1996
Subject: 1066 Science/magic revisited

From: Matthew Phillips
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 15:40:51 -0700

Our writer/traveller wrote: One thing I've noticed, in the recent weeks, is the limitation of the philosophical/religious aspects of alchemy to druidic/pagan studies. What about alchemical practices in the "major" religions, such as Christianity and Judaism? After all, what's the transformation of the host into the body and blood of Christ if not an alchemical (albeit philosophically) transformation?

I, a magician write: of the finer alchemical traditions I am aware, they
are all attempting to be intellectually rigourous. They encourage their
practitioners to think a certain way, namely if you mention "cup", a flood
of associations come to my mind: graal, stein, chalice, etc. and all of
the attendant associations which will often include, unspoken but
implicit, a Christian symbolism of sorts.
yours,

Matthew Phillips

Fri Jun 14 09:36:58 1996
Subject: 1067 Plant mutations/communication

From: Matthew Phillips
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:04:35 -0700

Morgan Saletta wrote,
>For those out their who think that "drugs" are not needed, I would
>suggest that they re-evaluate that position. Plant medicines are important in
>the furthering of the evolution of both body and mind, and in terms of
>raising the potential of the human mind, I can think of no better transformative
>agent, or key, than one which works at the molecular level. Of course,
>no medication is a substitute for thinking, meditation and spiritual
>exercise.
>However, our body is a laboratory, and we are seeking its
>transformation, and molecular agents must certainly be included in our tool chest.

Ah! somebody thinking scientifically about such a emotionally clouded
subject! The word "drug" or "drugs" is extremely loaded in present day
America and prevents much discussion on the subjects without tempers
flaring and thus annoying all scientifically minded people so that the
only people left after such a discussion are those who can't think.
Take a possible phrase: "You take drugs?" in an incredulous tone with a
little sneer on the word "drugs." Ask them to define drugs and they will
be at a loss. Do we include alcohol under the damning heading of
"drugs"?
Cigarettes? Coffee/caffeine? Sugar? Not usually though the first two
here cause much more damage/loss of life than LSD, marijuana, heroin,
cocaine, etc. etc. combined. That the second group are illegal is hardly the
point
I would like to consider presently. We aren't going to have a rational
conversation about drugs until we can rationally and rightly label the
things under discussion. Alcohol, tobacco/nicotine, caffeine, and sugar
all change your mind/body just as much as the other "drugs" do, but why
they are usually considered in a different class has not been explained
to me. So, who says alcohol isn't a drug? And if she is a drug why is
she different than LSD such that we all feel quite safe in an alcohol
world but very very unsafe in an LSD world?

Matthew Phillips

Fri Jun 14 09:37:07 1996
Subject: 1068 Science/magic

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:16:22 -0500
From: Logodox

>From: A'yin Da'ath
>
>OK. Now when you shoot two photons in different directions, one will travel
>like a wave, and the other like a particle. Also, when a photon is shot
>through a hole in say, paper, it changes and displays the qualities of a
>wave. So an experiment was set up, where one photon was shot one way, and
>passed through that hole, and the other would just go on. Guess what
>happened. When the particle changed to a wave, the other photon changed to
>particle.
>Now the thing that's REALLY got the physicist stuck is this - no energy was
>transferred between the photons. And according to science up until this
>point, all information MUST be conveyed by energy (energy, also, is matter.
>Think - electrons make energy, but they are also components of the atom,
>part of the so-called base structur of matter). So HOW in the hell did one
>photon know what the other was doing? The only possible answer is that
>information is NOT stored, conveyed, or somehow directly affected by energy.
>Just a little telepathy, then?

Not Telepathy...The photons or wave/particle duality and their separation in
time/space is a product of man's mental point-of-view. Physics probably
won't transcend this projection for a few hundred more years...

See EPR paradox (Einstein, Podolsky, Rosen) and Bell's Theorem...Both are
concerned with this instantaneous "action at a distance".

As long as science and it's equations postulate a "real" world "OUT THERE"
(instead of "IN HERE" mentally) there will never be a unified field theory
or any other "UNIFIED" physics theory which explains the ONE holographic whole
universe. See Hermetica "Dialog with his son Tat" where Trismegistus
(personified) tells his son to imagine himself at all places and all times
(AT ONCE !) i.e. in a mental space outside of that postulated by physics.
More and more evidence is pointing to the actual universe being of that
nature and our finite minds and ISOS (=, relational, subject/object)
equations won't fit that.

P.s. Regardless of Bailey's "Consciousness of the Atom" those electrons
don't know anything of themselves...the knowing is in the observer and his
reference frame. Also, for those positing "EXACT" prediction, read "Secrets
of Tibetan Monks" or any modern "quantum" intrepretation, there is no exact
future or exact past...only probabilities. See also Kybalion: "Universe is
Mental" !

Best,

[email protected]

Fri Jun 14 09:37:18 1996
Subject: 1069 Where to begin?

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:16:25 -0500
From: Logodox

>From: John Chas Webb

> Where to begin ?
> Find a really good library and simply survey the alchemical
>materials. Also check the bibiographies of any texts which interest you.
>It is overwhelming to hope for any significant degree of understanding
>when first starting alchemical exploration. Understanding is gradually
>distilled from many texts and many readings.
> Very often you may read what seems to be an extremely obtuse writing
>and then days, weeks or even months later a light will go on in your mind
>and you will grasp a deeper understanding. Rely upon your own intuitions
>and insights even though they may seem to contradict some of the
>information which you have collected. Enen though alchemy is presented as
>being "scientific" much of the writings are rendered in the language of
>symbol and it is in the contemplation of the various symbols that "truth"
>is gradually introduced
>into your conscious awareness.
> The first step in taming the mind is to move past the sensation of
>being overwhelmed. Be patient and curious and allow the writings to "work
>on you" rather than burden yourself with the immediate need to
>"understand". Simply read what comes into your hands and you will be
>guided to the next step, as if by magic!

Its really all about Your piece of the "creative" Godhead and the
harmonizing and rectification of Your Spirit, which when perfected can
accelerate perfection in the other kingdoms ! (via projection). Get around
all the multitudinous symbols of Alchemy and
build the new white stone with Your name written on it !

Best,

[email protected]

Fri Jun 14 09:37:27 1996
Subject: 1070 Science/magic

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:21:15 -0500
From: Logodox

Always for power eh ? You may not be able to imagine the state of
consciousness of a being (Human or otherwise) that has transcended the
"separateness" caused by the falseness of EGO. While something may be
nearly universally true, nearly isn't 100%.

Read any book on Buddhism or Tao TE Ching for examples.

Best,

[email protected]

Fri Jun 14 09:37:35 1996
Subject: 1071 Science/magic

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:30:39 -0700
From: tim scott

To: A'yin Da'ath (and others of like mind, like matthew philips)

> My point was that I BELIEVE everyone enters into study of the occult in
> search of something impure, in search of some sort of power over others, and

This being a free country (or net) of course you can believe what you like.
But exercising my corresponding freedom I can tell you that you have no
inkling what my motivations or beliefs are, nor most likely those of any
of the regular contributors to this list. (Let me give you the unsolicited
advice that if you pursue this philosophical course I can GUARANTEE you that
you will find abundant confirmation of your pre-conceptions. Seen it happen
a million times.)

> I guess my point is that no one gets into the occult for
> 'helping mankind, raising my spirit to attainment.' NO act is entirely
> unselfish. Let's say you give your house to the poor. What do you get in
> return? A feeling that you've done something (worthwhile or not will be lefA

Kindly spare us the adolescent neo-Satanic solipsism. If you can tell no
difference between an act of charity and a crime, simply because the doer
in each case experiences satisfaction, then I recommend a refreshing dip
back into basic philosophy or some of the dialogues of Plato.

> A lot of people get angry at this, simply because most of them like
> to think of themselves as being pure of heart.

No, they just get impatient with arrant nonsense.

> I think, mayhaps, that I've angered some of you. And I suppose you have a
> right to be angered by some ignorant little man on the other end of a strin
> of telephone lines, who does nothing but pretends to be 'superior' himself.
> And to that extent, I'm sorry. I'm sure you all are innocent of the crime o
> selfishness.

Don't flatter yourself. You seem to want to generate this anger reaction
(and you probably do, simply by acting like you do) but you really don't
warrant that energetic of a response. I merely observe that, if you are a
youth, you will most likely get over it, but if you're an adult and really
think this way, too bad for you.

> me a pretty damn selfish bastard. But at least I'll admit, that, as a human
> I'm a selfish creature.

So will I. It's called the animal element of human nature. The thing that
other magical and spiritual students have over you is that they realize that
they are more than just animals.

Good luck in your chosen path.

Tim Scott

Fri Jun 14 09:37:45 1996
Subject: 1072 Teachings of Art

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:33:11 -0400
From: William

A highly esteemed contributor to this forum, and well-known figure in 20th
century alchemy, Mr. Art Kunkin, is offering through his www site a
correspondence course of lessons on esoteric subjects.

Is anyone on the forum familiar with these lessons? Would anyone be willing
to share comments as to their usefulness?

William

Fri Jun 14 09:37:55 1996
Subject: 1073 Science/magic

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:47:34 +0000
From: A'yin Da'ath

>From: Rex Phillips
>AyinDaath, though power is indeed everywhere, there are also certain
>times in our life where we are free to make decisions which aren't so
>intertwined with power. I can imagine a point in someone's life,
>probably later on in life around 30 let's say, where one has already won
>ones self a satisfactory amount of power and one can now pursue a
>decision without being totally and utterly chained to these blind
>forces. Sure, under a Crowleyan gloss (with which I am very
>sympathetic), the next action we undertake even after having secured
>ourselves some power, will be to in one way or another gain more power
>since all that we do is a matter of Will, but our Will need not always
>be seen best through the solitary lens of Power- just as well we could
>soften our view and see Love directing all our actions (one big orgasmic
>love feast, explosion after explosion, undulation after undulation, two
>uniting themselves to lose themselves in the perfection of a third,
>etc.).

However, love is still a power. I'm not using power as in the term of Orwell
solely, but as a collective word for all of energy, in a sense.

Christ used love as a political force, force indicating a movement of power.
(according to the gospels). Gandhi did the same thing, although I see fewer
and fewer people ready to kill the heathens in Gandhi's name.

X
[email protected]

Fri Jun 14 09:38:05 1996
Subject: 1074 Voynich Manuscript

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:10:23 -0600 (MDT)
From: Tom Hennessy

I am wondering if anyone knows a little about the Voynich Manuscript? A
man named Levitov seemed to have come up with a 'cypher' for the work but I
have not been able to find this translation. Did he ever completely finish
the translation or did he just solve the cypher?
It is supposed to be a Cathar manuscript called the 'Endura'.

Who loves ya.
Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman

Fri Jun 14 09:38:18 1996
Subject: 1075 Search/consciousness

Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1980 09:17:33 -0700
From: Morgan Saletta

Whoa whoa whoa, since when have we been living in a 'uni'-verse? Rather, I
would say, that these are multiverses. Each individual has their own
multiverse, which is itself a multi-directional and instatic system of
points, including the observer. And if conciousness manifest from organic
material is the goal, what now? What are we? Are we discussing a higher
level of conciousness, and if so, how is this possible? Are there really
levels of conciousness, and if so, what are they?
------------------------------>reply(to a reply)<-------------------------------

I couldn't possibly agree more with the idea that we are multi-verses--this
is firmly grounded in contemporary physics and the idea of
world-lines(should we rather say world-waves) and frames of reference. The
impossibility of practically proving simultinaity speaks of the infinite
iteration of scales and the infinite which resides in each point of overlap
between reference points. Instatic yes, fluctuation, iteration, scale,
stochasticity-- these are words with which we can attempt a description of
what I feel only intuitively as yet.
Is this the only way to know? Universe has not yet escaped our Cartesian,
flat map, landscape painting perspective of our perceived and
projected/estimated world. But multi-verse sounds a little contrived, don't
you think. And universe does imply a "unity", which is at the heart of our
philosophic systems.
I guess the question is really: is an All-inclusivity possible--or is it an
open set?
********************************************************************************
And if conciousness manifest from organic
material is the goal, what now? What are we? Are we discussing a higher
level of conciousness, and if so, how is this possible? Are there really
levels of conciousness, and if so, what are they?
----------------------------------->reply,--------------------------------------

Not only from organic matter, I think, though it may not have been clear in
my original post. Consciousness of everything. Perhaps this is the chemical
wedding. Oneness through consciousness fusion.

Higher consciousness, as we (though some would argue) are of a higher
consciousness than an ant (but perhaps not to whales), seems to be a goal of
life. We can not presume to be the climax of evolution (though some would
assert this). Rather, we must assume that we are only midway (till the death
of the our star) on the path of terrestrial evolution.The levels are
themselves unstatic, and any limits are probably just that (in the
mathematical sense of infinitely approximating a number) We are presently
witnessing what may be the extension of our consciousness into inorganic
material (silicon, etc.).
This is simultaneously (I should be careful--co-incidentally, rather?),
occuring with a new "global awareness"(contributing to it as well), and the
first life forms within the networks we have created.

If we trust our dearly departed elder, Prof. Leary, that life is a
metapopulation (my borrowed term from population biology) and projects
itself through space in the form of a virus like information packet, and
perhaps later through other means, and life at all stages of
consciousness/evolution exists.

Leary places the smallest scale consciousness in the structure of the atom,
which we now see as an unstatic, scalar structure. Perhaps, if we grant as
he does that the universe (or muli-verse) is alive, then the goal is truly
reproduction (through fusion) at an infinite iteration of scales. As long as
reproduction occurs, then entropy is kept at bay.

Fri Jun 14 09:38:30 1996
Subject: 1076 Tarocchi de Mantegna

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:08:43 +1000 (EST)
From: Gionni Di Gravio

Dear RawnClark,

There was an article by Oliver Perrin in the ALEXANDRIA 3 (I think)
journal put out through Phanes Press. If you email me off list I can give
you a contact address for Mr Perrin.

Sincerely,

Gionni Di Gravio
[email protected]
Archives and Special Collections, Auchmuty Library
University of Newcastle, Australia

Fri Jun 14 12:15:32 1996
Subject: 1077 Search

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 23:38:20 -1000

| From: A'yin Da'ath
|
| . And if conciousness manifest from organic| material is the goal, what
now?
What are we? Are we discussing a hiher| level of conciousness, and if so,
how is this possible? Are there really| levels of conciousness, and if
so, what are they?
|| The goal of alchemy is the transformation of base material into
something
| higher, of a greater level. The questions arrise in that we do not know what
| it is a higher level of. Is it material? Is it spiritual? What are we
| attempting to accomplish?
|
| X
| [email protected]

Part of The "problem" in perceiving "higher" levels of consciousness
is that we are attempting to perceive it with the faculty that goes
through the transformation (our own consciousness). We can however IMAGINE
higher levels of consciousness by using our image making faculty
(imagination, magic, mage, magician).
General "rules of thumb" regarding the various levels are:
1) the lower the level the more dense the matter (eg. lead)
2) the higher the level the more fluid and flexible (eg.
quicksilver)
3) the "base material" out of which we construct a higher reality
is ourselves

The main accomplishment is to distill the consciousness (mercury)
out of its identification with dense matter (our physical forms). [In the solar
system the planet mercury (intellect) is closest to the GOLDEN Sun (the soul).
This suggests that intelligence is the faculty closest to the creative power].

Our "goal" then is to begin to disassociate our "selves" from the
physical body, and to begin to re-associate ourselves with the soul which is pure golden light.

To complete this process is the work of alchemy. To transcend the
physical plane and attain liberation from the negative binding aspects of matter
(the principle enemy being the illusion of death).

The crucible in which this process is conducted is the self. The self
is the universe in microcosm (as above so below). And if the Key of Hermes is accurate (as above so below) then we are fragments of the creative power (God) who have somehow slipped into the "underworld" and ceased identifying with our spiritual natures.

To attain liberation is the goal of alchemy. To burn off the dross of
the gross physical nature and to, once again, wear the golden garment of the spirit.

Peace,

John Chas Webb

Fri Jun 14 14:41:11 1996
Subject: 1078 Plant mutations/communication

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:27:24 -0500 (EST)
From: OISPEGGY

Morgan Saletta:

>My own experiences with certain fungus suggest that there is a message of
>sorts in the molecular structure of psilocybin which can result in direct
>experience of the oneness of plant, mineral, and animal.

Molecular structure.... I posted about this awhile back. I have this
idea that the enochian entities, some of them, or some entitites of
some sort, are expressed via the elements -- this after scrying the
periodic table. In fact, I have this working theory that any type
of matter has another level of force in a less material plane (for
lack of a better word) and that some of these ethereal forces have
what we would call consciousness and/or can do stuff. Its sort of
like the classic _Flatland_ (found in the philosophy or engineering
section of mosts libraries). We are in a "flat" dimension and
can only see/feel/hear stuff that passes into our plane, but that
doesn't mean that our is the only plane or that the entire "thing" is
expressing itself in our plane only. (Also, the sensory experiences
we can have are terrific and should be enjoyed and cultivated because
we may not always have the chance.) I've found the ideas in
_Flatland_ to be very useful when applied to esoteric studies.

>Wasson suggests that mind altering plants were perhaps the catalyst for the
>spiritual awakening of humankind: could this awakening be part of a larger
>directive towards increasing self-awareness in the world?

Sure. Although the legal problems involved with acquiring psychedelics
are for some (like me) discouraging, they can be very useful in the way
you suggest. In fact, I recall that the US gov'ment had great success
some decades back in an experimental psychology experiment where
alcohol addicts were counseled then treated with lsd and gained sufficient
insight that many -- a much higher % than those who had only the counseling
-- successfully were able to escape their alcohol addiction and all the
dynamics involved with it.

So I have no argument with what you state above. However, I would
not describe plants in terms only of their usefulness to humans.
IMO a more shamanic approach yields more. They are critters unto themselves
with a type of consciousness. Some are powerful and some are wise. Put
yourself on their level when you talk to them. :)

>For those out their who think that "drugs" are not needed, I would suggest

I don't think psychedelics are necessarily needed. They might help open
doors for some and help them progress faster. They might freak others out.
IMO its best up to the individual to decide about whether or not to use
them. IMO meditation and such will eventually yield the same results.

Regards,

- Peggy -

Fri Jun 14 17:33:49 1996
Subject: 1079 Music

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:09:46 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe
Subject: Music

I am looking for any music which may be called Hermetic in some kind of way,
either classical or modern.
I know of the mystery-plays like the Zauber-fl�te (text of Schikaneder, and
music of Mozart), the operas of Wagner, The beautifully texts (Like some
poems of Blake) put on music by Benjamin Britten, A modern Gnosticly
orientated band called 'Dead Can Dance', The Atalanta Fugiens of Michael
Maier, and different Buddhistic chants.
This is about all I have come across, so maybe someone will be able to add
to this very short list.

Maybe you can suggest some music performed by some Gnostic church or some
other music written by an alchemist, or whatever.
I am interested in any kind of suggestion regarding this subject.

If it goes too far from the subject of alchemy then you are free to e-mail
me of course.

douwe.

[email protected]

Fri Jun 14 17:34:10 1996
Subject: 1080 Voynich Manuscript

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: R. Brzustowicz

> From: Tom Hennessy
> I am wondering if anyone knows a little about the Voynich Manuscript? A
> man named Levitov seemed to have come up with a 'cypher' for the work but I
> have not been able to find this translation.

Author: Levitov, Leo
Title: Solution of the Voynich Manuscript
Publisher: Aegean Park Press
Year: 1987
Pages: 176p.
ISBN/Price: 0-89412-149-9 Library Binding $44.30
0-89412-148-0 Trade Paper $34.80

"so-called translation" would be more accurate.

Did he ever completely finish
> the translation or did he just solve the cypher?

Neither.

> It is supposed to be a Cathar manuscript called the 'Endura'.
^^^^^^^^

By Levitov.

There's a very nice big web site archiving the discussions of a Voynich
mailing list frequented by sophisticated cryptographic and scholarly
types. The consensus: despite many and conflicting claims, no one has
ever figured out how to read the thing, or even if it can be read.

R Brzustowicz ([email protected])

Fri Jun 14 17:34:20 1996
Subject: 1081 Science/magic

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:03:56 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

>From: A'yin Da'ath
>A lot of people get angry at this, simply because most of them like
>to think of themselves as being pure of heart.

*not necessarily true. Again, its more a matter of no way of knowing what's
in the minds of others. Ever heard of theurgy?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Fri Jun 14 20:19:45 1996
Subject: 1082 Voynich Manuscript

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:31:09 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

>From: Tom Hennessy
>I am wondering if anyone knows a little about the Voynich Manuscript? A
>man named Levitov seemed to have come up with a 'cypher' for the work but I
>have not been able to find this translation. Did he ever completely finish
>the translation or did he just solve the cypher?
>It is supposed to be a Cathar manuscript called the 'Endura'.
>Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman

*do I detect a thread on Holy Blood, Holy Grail coming up?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Fri Jun 14 20:19:55 1996
Subject: 1083 Trojanis

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:08:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Claude Gagnon

I will look if I still have the adress of the Society devoted to
Peladan's thought. Maybe our french subscribers, like Mr. Tetard, could
help us.

Claude Gagnon

Fri Jun 14 20:20:03 1996
Subject: 1084 Teachings of Art

Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1980 20:57:32 -0700
From: Morgan Saletta

>A highly esteemed contributor to this forum, and well-known figure in 20th
>century alchemy, Mr. Art Kunkin, is offering through his www site a
>correspondence course of lessons on esoteric subjects.
>Is anyone on the forum familiar with these lessons? Would anyone be willing
>to share comments as to their usefulness?
>William
--------------------------------->reply<------------------------------------

I do not know anything of this course, but if you have his URL, I would be
very interested in checking it out. I am interested in learning more about
esoterica in general, and am interested as well in the role of the internet
in general education.

Sincerely,

Morgan Saletta

Fri Jun 14 20:20:14 1996
Subject: 1085 Tarocchi de Mantegna

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:34:24 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

Just wanted to give you folks a brief report about the Tarots de Mantegna.
Just got the Trojani book on the subject and quickly realized what the deal
is about this deck. This is one of the non-Tarot variant decks from the
Middle Ages. It uses the same myth structure (the most prominent example of
which is in Petrarch's Trionfi) as in other Tarots or pseudo-Tarots of the
time.

Here's a taste of its difference. The trumps in most tarots are listed,
from 0 to 21 as Fool, Mage/Juggler, Papess, Empress, Emperor, Pope, Lovers,
Chariot, Justice, Hermit, Wheel, Strength, Hanged Man, Death, Temperance,
Devil, House of God/Tower, Star, Moon, Sun, Last Judgement, World. By no
means has this sequence been consistent. The Mantegna Tarots list from
bottom to top the following [the 1st ten are labelled 'la Hierarchie de la
Societe et la Condition Humaine'] Misero, Fameio (servant), Artixan,
Merchadante, Zintilomo (Gentleman), Chavalier, Doxe (Doge), Re, Imperator,
Papa, [these are 'les Muses et Apollon']: Caliope, Terpsicore, Erato,
Polimnia, Talia, Melpomene, Euterpe, Clio, Apollo; [the next are 'les Arts
Liberaux et les Sciences']: Grammatica, Loica (Logic), Rhetorica,
Geometria, Arithmetricha, Musicha, Poesia, Philosopfia, Astrologica,
Theologia; [then 'les Principes Cosmiques et les Sept Vertus']: Iliaco ('le
Genie de la Lumiere), Chronico ('le Genie du Temps'), Cosmico ('le Genie du
Monde'), Temperancia, Prudencia, Forteza (Force), Iusticia, Charita,
Speranza, Feda; [finally 'les Sept Planetes et les Spheres'] Luna,
Mercurio, Venus, Sol, Marte, Jupiter, Saturno.

Some of the Mantegna triumphs are present in regular triumphs. All are
prominent in the art, literature and performance of the time. We all know
about the stages of Man from Shakespeare's As You Like It, and the 7
sins/virtues.

Trojani speaks to tarot's cultural context, and seems to be relating it
somewhat at least to alchemy. But my French is poor. Can someone with
better command take it on?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Sat Jun 15 08:04:56 1996
Subject: 1086 spiritual/psychological alchemy

From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 21:03:37 BST

A good point:

>>And there's no place for philosophy in most of these, there's only laws
>>or theories, and these theories must be accepted there isn't always a
>>"why?".

Yes, from a lurker! Has anyone else noticed how the theory of Plate
Tectonics in GeoSciences has become accepted fact in less than 20 years?

>> I think that it lost it's connection with
>>reality and truth.
> >I'm interested in the philosophy, the mysticism and the chemistry.

> True consciousness, in which one could know anything faded, so people
> didn't know of these from first hand or direct insight, priest classes became
> less priest like, and more corrupt, just leaving no more then a shadow
> of the knowledge as it once was commonly known.
> Like this you find a lot of holy scriptures which are hard to understand,
> and which are so obscure that the masses don't seem to recognize the
> universal truth in them anymore.

Surely as the priest classes became the controlling classes, not only did
they become corrupt, but the Knowledge was DELIBERATELY obscured to retain
the power of those who held the keys?
As a researcher into very ancient history and prehistory, there just is NO
documentation; very little evidence exists for beliefs before 200 BCE, and
what there is has to be read between the lines.
There certainly was a renewal of philosophical thought, in a period which
began shortly bewfore the birth of Christ, and continued for a few huundred
years. This seems to have been an immense, world-wide Renewal of religious
feeling, as if people the world over, in completely different and separated
cultures, awoke.

IMHO, Alchemy contains what you want it to contain. For me, it is a growing
spirituality, a metaphysical understanding of what I see and feel around
me. It is other things to other people. Jung uses it as a metaphor for the
growth of that which we call our Soul.

> Because if there where unity then there wouldn't be a world as we know it.
> Still the idea of alchemy is to go beyond this world of opposites, in
>order to find the Re-Union.

This is language calculated to hide meaning. Part of alchemy to me at least,
is finding the deeper meaning behind the language. Part of it is learning
to use the metaphorical side of the brain, to learn to think in pictures
rather than words, in ideas, rather than language which describes and
defines and ties down the ideas.
There is an awful lot of metaphor in alchemy.

I agree with douwe:

> Alchemy is extremely simple if you have the eyes for it.

$ita.

Sat Jun 15 08:40:28 1996
Subject: 1087 Science/magic

From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 21:04:03 BST

>>It doesn't matter who - anyone who says that the
>>reason they entered the study for the purpose of raising themselves
>>to higher status is lying.
>
> Not me. I started it in order to raise myself and I am not lying.
> Actually, early on I would have chucked my esoteric studies in
> a minute if I could just live a simple, happy life. Now I'm
> hooked though. My point is that not everyone starts in order to
> get power.
> - Peggy -

Yes, Peggy, so did I. If anything, it was the Divine Principle
itself/Herself? that led me into it, from a very black patch of severe
depression. Alchemy/Spirituality has been the path the Divine has used
to bring me back to Life.
Once I was dead, but now am free.

$ita.

Sat Jun 15 08:40:36 1996
Subject: 1088 Power

From: Barry Carter
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:59:42 +0000

Dear Friends,

I would like to add my two cents worth to this discussion about
power. Perhaps it would be useful to distinguish between personal
power (ie. the power to manifest value fulfillment in one's own
life) and other sorts of power. According to my understanding,
personal power is a consequence of the nature of infinity. Infinity
not only extends time and space outward forever, it also extends
possibility out forever. (The thing about infinity is, there sure is
a lot of it.)

One theory which is current among quantum physicists is that there
are an infinite number of universes congruent with our own. I
believe that each of us chooses the next universe we will inhabit in
the next instant on the basis of our beliefs. These beliefs include
belief in what is possible, belief in what we deserve and belief in
what we "need" to grow.

Having an infinite number of universes allows for a lot of free will.
Each of us can choose a different universe for our home in the next
second. This puts the world we are sharing into the category of
consensus reality. It also puts a great deal of responsibility onto
each of us. If I create (or choose) my own reality then I am
responsible for everything which happens to me, whether good or bad.
Accepting this responsibility and choice is the basis for personal
power.

Personal power is actualized when I acknowledge that I choose the
difficulty which is in front of me. If I choose the difficulty, then
I can un-choose it. In order to un-choose it I may need to figure
out which of my beliefs are sponsoring the difficulty and to change
those beliefs.

Even though it is right that harm comes to others when they "cause"
suffering, it is not right for me to be the one who brings them that
harm. (It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto
him, through whom they come! Luke 17:1) If I believe that the only
way I can get what I want is to force someone else to get it for me,
then I don't believe in my own personal power to attract what I want
from the primal depths of the universes.

I see personal alchemy as learning to attract my creative desires
by letting go of my addictions. When I give in to my addictions they
lead me to trample all over other people's feelings in persuit of
what I want. When I live without addictions, what I want is
delivered to my doorstep, by an unseen agent, without direct effort
on my part. (For sixty years I have been forgetfull, every minute,
but not for a second has this flowing toward me stopped or slowed.
-Rumi)

With Kindest Regards,

Barry Carter

Sat Jun 15 08:40:43 1996
Subject: 1089 Plant mutations/communication

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:49:04 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe

>From: Matthew Phillips
>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:04:35 -0700

>>Morgan Saletta wrote,
>>For those out their who think that "drugs" are not needed, I would
>>suggest that they re-evaluate that position. Plant medicines are important in
>>the furthering of the evolution of both body and mind, and in terms of
>>raising the potential of the human mind, I can think of no better
>>transformative
>>agent, or key, than one which works at the molecular level. Of course,
>>no medication is a substitute for thinking, meditation and spiritual
>>exercise.
>>However, our body is a laboratory, and we are seeking its
>>transformation, and molecular agents must certainly be included in our tool
>>chest.
>
>Ah! somebody thinking scientifically about such a emotionally clouded
>subject! The word "drug" or "drugs" is extremely loaded in present day
>America and prevents much discussion on the subjects without tempers
>flaring and thus annoying all scientifically minded people so that the
>only people left after such a discussion are those who can't think.
>Take a possible phrase: "You take drugs?" in an incredulous tone with a
>little sneer on the word "drugs." Ask them to define drugs and they will
>be at a loss. Do we include alcohol under the damning heading of
>"drugs"?
>Cigarettes? Coffee/caffeine? Sugar? Not usually though the first two
>here cause much more damage/loss of life than LSD, marijuana, heroin,
>cocaine, etc. etc. combined. That the second group are illegal is hardly the
>point
>I would like to consider presently. We aren't going to have a rational
>conversation about drugs until we can rationally and rightly label the
>things under discussion. Alcohol, tobacco/nicotine, caffeine, and sugar
>all change your mind/body just as much as the other "drugs" do, but why
>they are usually considered in a different class has not been explained
>to me. So, who says alcohol isn't a drug? And if she is a drug why is
>she different than LSD such that we all feel quite safe in an alcohol
>world but very very unsafe in an LSD world?
>
>Matthew Phillips

Isn't it important to reach a point where you decrease any outward
stimulation to a minimum, so that the inward and outward world start to
overlap each other (trough the concentration of, or on, an universal agent),
so that they are noticed as One big whole?
The use of a medicine will either focus you on the inward or on the outward
world, so that neither of them will come in balance with the other.

(And even the use of the universal agent would be damaging on long term use,
or the user should also be able to maintain the same quality of life as
without the use of it.
If you would use it you might not feel the tendency to change your life at
all, so that you still might live out all your desires, or the seven sins
without any feeling of doing something wrong.
At the same time you would be happy inside until the sensitive inner
equivalent that you carry around in you might pack in and leave for good, by
which a lot of harm will be done.
The use of the universal agent would be good to be used once or twice as a
pointer of in which direction to go.)

Medicines are ONLY helpful if they heal the desire which initially caused
the disease.

Further speaking of drugs that have to be taken all the time to be able to
stay on the presumed 'spiritual high', who is going to administer them to
him when the user dies???

Apart from all of this I didn't see meat in the row of kinds of drugs, I
believe that meat is one of the most accepted and one of the oldest one in
use (it namely works in the very same way as any other kind of drugs).

douwe

[email protected]

Sat Jun 15 08:40:54 1996
Subject: 1090 Music

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 17:10:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: John D. O'Brien

> From: douwe
>
> I am looking for any music which may be called Hermetic in some kind of way,
> either classical or modern. > douwe. > [email protected]
>
I think it is totally relevant to Alchemy, as do others. We had a short
thread about this in April and this is some info that I gleaned from the
net in general.

From: tera
Newsgroups: bionet.general
Subject: Re: Music derived from genetic sequences; question
Date: 2 Apr 1996 21:00:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: tjstbc.cts.com

I tend to do this quite a bit myself for my own amusement. I have played many
"songs" on guitar/keyboards by simply taking the four bases ACGT and assigning
their note/chord counterparts ACG. T is the "wobble" base in this musical
equation and I assign it various chords ie Bm, D etc. Just print out any old
sequence, grab an instrument and jam the DNA song of life. By working out a
strategy for including codons and thus increasing the possibilities, I have
found that DNA symphonies can be constructed. Note: Tandem repeats make good
bridges. Cheers. Barry.

From: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 01:31:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Music derived from genetic sequences; question

Does anyone know any details about who, what, where...?

Write to:

David Deamer, Science and the Arts
P.O. Box 8162
Berkeley, CA 94707

I have purchased some of the available disks and cassetes and found they make
great gifts for my science and biology professors.

<<<<< Also >>>>

From: [email protected] (Keith Robison)
Subject: Re: Music derived from genetic sequences; question
Date: 30 Mar 1996 14:16:42 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts

: Does anyone know any details about who, what, where...?

Susumu Ohno has done some of this work. If I remember correctly,
you can get a bunch of citations by searching Medline for
"dna and music".

Some Medline search services can be found via
http://golgi.harvard.edu/htbin/biopages?medline

Keith Robison
Harvard University
Department of Molecular & Cellular Biology
Department of Genetics

[email protected]

THE ALL PERVASIVE PRINCIPLE OF REPETITIOUS RECURRENCE GOVERNS NOT ONLY CODING
SEQUENCE CONSTRUCTION BUT ALSO HUMAN ENDEAVOR IN MUSICAL COMPOSITION.

Ohno S; Ohno M

Immunogenetics 24: 71-8 (1986)

Abstract
Organisms which have evolved on this earth are governed by multitudes
of periodicities; tomorrow is another today, and the next year is
going to be much like this year. Accordingly, the principle of
repetitious recurrence pervades every aspect of life on this earth.
Thus, individual genes in the genome have been duplicated and
triplicated often to the point of redundancy, and each coding sequence
consists of numerous variously truncated as well as variously
base-substituted copies of the original primordial building block base
oligomers and their allies. This principle even appears to govern the
manifestations of human intellect; musical compositions also rely on
this principle of repetitious recurrence. Accordingly, coding base
sequences can be transformed into musical scores using one set rule.
Conversely, musical scores can be transcribed to coding base sequences
of long open reading frames.

Mesh Headings

Animal DNA* Evolution Genes, Structural Human Mice Music*

Phosphoglycerate Kinase Protein Conformation
Repetitive Sequences, Nucleic Acid* RNA Polymerase II

Unique Identifier: 86302779
Chemical Identifiers (Names)
EC 2.7.2.3 (Phosphoglycerate Kinase)

EC 2.7.7.- (RNA Polymerase II) 9007-49-2 (DNA)

--

John D. O'Brien [email protected]

Sat Jun 15 08:41:03 1996
Subject: 1091 Voynich Manuscript

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:19:59 -0700

For a good web start then:

http://netlib.att.com/math/people/reeds/voynich.html

has a bibliography of stuff in print.

I've read
Brumbaugh, Robert S. The World's Most Mysterious Manuscript. Carbondale:
Southern Illinois University Press,in adavance 1978.

which is a collection of essays and articles written over the last century. It
is perhaps a bit disappointing but it is an excellent introduction.

jon

Sat Jun 15 08:41:14 1996
Subject: 1092 Search

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:43:33 -0700
From: Andy

I like this John. Any suggestions for learning to transfer the
consciousness? Is there an Alchemical aid?

Sat Jun 15 08:41:26 1996
Subject: 1093 Music

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 20:06:08 -0000
From: photopro

Dowe,

There is "The Planets" by Holst and various recordings of it. One piece
for each of the 7 Planets. Very mystical.
&
How about Mahlers Symphony #2 "Resurrection"? Sounds like Key 21 The
World Dancer.

Wisa

Sat Jun 15 08:41:35 1996
Subject: 1094 Power

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 20:40:01 -0000
From: photopro

Response to Ayindaath:-

>My point was that I BELIEVE everyone enters into study of the occult in
>search of something impure, in search of some sort of power over others, and
>after a while of study they are after something completely different (ahah!
>Alchemy again. Impure to pure). I was after sexual power, and now I'm after
>something radically more important, in other words, true attainment. I
>learned, along the way, that sex is meaningless compared to the things that
>I've experienced. I guess my point is that no one gets into the occult for
>'helping mankind, raising my spirit to attainment.' NO act is entirely
>unselfish. Let's say you give your house to the poor. What do you get in
>return? A feeling that you've done something (worthwhile or not will be left
>to see when you realize you have no where to sleep tonight, and the low is
>-23).

If you were after sexual power, does that mean that you believed that you
did not have it naturally? The sex force is never meaningless. That force
is The Force of All Forces and whether it is called sex, death,
kundalini, serpent or life breath it is the same Force. How you use it
is what matters. And the great Force is in the dark side! So one does not
negate that aspect of ones self. It is to be balanced and reconciled
and to become servant to the aspirant. If one uses it otherwise, much can
be done for and to that individual but without the balance, the payment
(balancing out of the scales of undeviated justice) will be
waiting.

I never took lessons in developing that power...I guess it came
naturally and I didn't ignore it, but that Force, kept up, brought me
into The Path. "Never let it go....." I also knew men who had tremendous
sexual force and used it magnificently on the Earth plane but never got
anywhere into transformation because they never knew it existed and could
be done.
You sound like the latter part of this statement. Still, if you get a
thrill with ritual, you know something about force.

Wisa

Sat Jun 15 08:41:43 1996
Subject: 1095 Homunculus

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:04:10 -0500
From: Logodox

>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:24:29 +0200 (MET DST)
>From: douwe
>It is not a human thing that is created but a spiritual being within yourself.
>(there may be something created being not unlike an elemental, but I
>wouldn't want to meddle with this)

Me neither!

>Talking of sperm he means retaining the sexual energy which will become
>creative in different ways by building up the brain for instance.
>The Homunculus, is a spiritual entity which one may first know as something
>being half yourself but being more spiritual than yourself as you were.
>It is said that the homunculus knows anything, and this is because of its
>transparency, or better, because; the spiritual side of yourself is not
>dense you are able to penetrate other worlds by which you may observe, and
>know them.

Do Ya think it has independent existence ? Is it a created being in any sense
at all ?

>This Homunculus may in some ways be compared with the 'Ka' or the 'Etheric
>double', although it is not the same... (Leaving your body with your
>etherical double makes you 'seem' bigger, while the Homunculus feels as
>something like a small bright field of knowledge where you may turn to by an
>inward focussing... leaving your body is even the opposite of this).
>The Homunculus has to be fed with human blood... this is a different way of
>saying that your blood will be changed (purified) in this part of the
>process, by which it is made more spiritual (the soul is in the blood, and
>has to be cleansed from all the extraneous tendencies, so that it will
>become polarized upon high).
>The number 40 comes in here (in Paracelsus his talk about the Homunculus he
>says about a putrefaction of 40 days in a curcubit for instance) a lot
>as well, and it denotes the timespan of transformation of the soul... like 40
>days/years in a desert full of temptations and such.
>(When it comes to the desert I like the idea that the number 40 is the
>number of the Hebrew letter Mem, or Maim, and that this letter means
>'water', so after the 40 days ended the desert (fallen dry matter, or desert
>of life) becomes an true oasis of life, ... just my own thought...)
>The Homunculus may be taken as an inner child (not inner childishness) which
>has to grow to a full spiritual body.
>
>douwe.

douwe, I have enjoyed your marvelous postings these last few months. I perceive
a tremendous depth of insight on your part. Don't think this
perception of mine is in any way "projected". For those who are
keen to your wisdom, they are blessed by your postings,
Truly...pax-nous.

Best,

[email protected]

Sat Jun 15 08:41:52 1996
Subject: 1096 Science/magic

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 22:06:52 -0500 (EST)
From: OISPEGGY

>From: tim scott
>To: A'yin Da'ath (and others of like mind, like matthew philips)
>> My point was that I BELIEVE everyone enters into study of the occult in
>> search of something impure, in search of some sort of power over others, and

>This being a free country (or net) of course you can believe what you like.
>But exercising my corresponding freedom I can tell you that you have no
>inkling what my motivations or beliefs are, nor most likely those of any
>of the regular contributors to this list. (Let me give you the unsolicited
>advice that if you pursue this philosophical course I can GUARANTEE you that
>you will find abundant confirmation of your pre-conceptions. Seen it happen
a million times.)

I agree (with what Tim Scott said).

>> A lot of people get angry at this, simply because most of them like
>> to think of themselves as being pure of heart.

>No, they just get impatient with arrant nonsense.

That too! And I shall leave it at that, since my original response was
stopped by the moderator.

- Peggy -

..of the pure heart and rose-colored glasses....

Sat Jun 15 08:42:01 1996
Subject: 1097 Science/magic revisited

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:11:56 -1000

| From: Matthew Phillips
| Our writer/traveller wrote: One thing I've noticed, in the recent weeks, is
| the limitation of the philosophical/religious aspects of alchemy to
| druidic/pagan studies. What about alchemical practices in the "major"
| religions, such as Christianity and Judaism? After all, what's the
| transformation of the host into the body and blood of Christ if not an
| alchemical (albeit philosophically) transformation?
| Matthew Phillips

The transformation of the host into the presence of the Christ is a ritual of magic conducted by an initiate into the mysteries (a REAL priest or other holy man or woman). It is an invocation - the summoning of spiritual energies or deities into the circle of the magician!
The deepest secret in Christian mysticism is how to transmute the flesh
(bread) and wine (blood) into the Christ (the soul). Herein lies the secret of the "Last Supper" and the unwritten methods of the highest practice of Alchemy. Simply put, it is, how to gradually turn yourself (back) into the golden spark of divinity while distilling or extracting one's spiritual essence out of matter.
In Christian esotericism the starting place is the crucified Christ (the soul totally captivated by matter +) and from there one enters into the process of resurrection. (i.e. allowing the power and light of the soul [the gold] to consume the cravings of the flesh and blood [the animal] and to, once again, remember that we are of a divine origin!
The transmutation is not only a matter of philosophy but an actual event. Philosophers talk about it while alchemists actually do it! The mind will tell you that all life ends in death. This is the BIG LIE that must be conquered. The spiritual awakening is similiar to the World Wide Web, whenever you log on you are always at the center of it!
Spend one whole day trying to be unconditionally loving and just observe the "dross" that rises from your sub-conscious to be "skimmed off"! This is the Great Work, to turn yourself back into the substance (gold) that has been purified to perfection!

Peace,
John Chas Webb

Sat Jun 15 08:42:09 1996
Subject: 1098 Plant mutations/communication

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:27:22 -1000

| Morgan Saletta wrote,
| >For those out their who think that "drugs" are not needed, I would
| >suggest that they re-evaluate that position. Plant medicines are important in
| >the furthering of the evolution of both body and mind, and in terms of
| >raising the potential of the human mind, I can think of no better
| transformative
| >agent, or key, than one which works at the molecular level. Of course,
| >no medication is a substitute for thinking, meditation and spiritual
| >exercise.
| >However, our body is a laboratory, and we are seeking its
| >transformation, and molecular agents must certainly be included in our
| >tool chest.

Anything which produces euphoria in Western "culture" is immediately made illegal. The "reason" for this is because happiness does not sell products. People buy products because our culture links them to yielding happiness. This is the dilemma of the material mind. Western culture produces "hungry ghosts" who seek one material "thrill" after another. A consuming madness.
Every ancient culture has used psychotropic substances. In the hands of the disciplined these substances are sacrament. In the hands of the profane they become addictive tools of destruction.
Nothing has ever produced a greater "high" in me than a seven day fast (but it took 10 years to do it!).

Peace,

John Chas Webb|

Sat Jun 15 08:42:18 1996
Subject: 1099 Voynich Manuscript

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Art Kunkin

Dear Tom,
The books I will refer to in answering you are buried in my storage
area so I can not give quotations or titles. I believe the Voynich
Manuscript is of interest to alchemists.
The manuscript is named after a book dealer named Voynich who
distributed copies to encourage people to decode it. In the 1920's a
sizeable translation and commentary along with facsimiles of the Voynich
distribution appeared. The author claimed that the manuscript was written
in prison by the alchemist Roger Bacon in the 12th century. I have a copy
of this book in storage but I read it many years ago and can not recollect
much about it.
Then I came across a sizeable mention of the manuscript in a book
called "The Archaic Revival" by Terence McKenna. In his commentary,
McKenna mentioned a recent book called, "The Solution of The Voynich
Manuscript" by Dr. Leo Levitov. I got a copy of this from a small publisher
near San Diego that specializes in books on cryptography. This, too, is in
storage but I know exactly where it is and can get the name of publisher
for you in a few days. The thesis of this Levitov book is that the 1920
translation missed the mark entirely, that it has nothing to do with Roger
Bacon, and the book really is about the Cathar ritual of Endura where women
and men bathe in blood to rejuvenate themselves. This explains some of the
plates. However, this book is not a complete translation, as I recall, and
I was very dissatisfied with the author because he entirely ignored talking
about the meaning of many other plates distributed by the dealer Voynich (I
believe also printed in the earlier edition) depicting herbs and plants. I
do think Levitov is correct in relating the book to the Cathars but, as I
recall, he says nothing about its relation to alchemy and, in that, I think
the earlier book to be more accurate. I hope you are motivated to find out
more and further inform all of us.
Cordially, Art Kunkin
[email protected]

Art Kunkin
Publisher and Editor, World Wide Free Press
URL: http://www.wwfreepress.com/
Voice: 310-455-2451 E-Mail: [email protected]

Sat Jun 15 08:42:26 1996
Subject: 1100 Teachings of Art

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Art Kunkin

Dear Friends,
Because of the pressure of other work I have prepared a few of the
lessons that William has mentioned but am embarrassed to say that I have
not produced or mailed them as regularly as I had originally planned.
Nevertheless, I do plan to honor the subscriptions of those who have
already requested the lessons from me and would be glad to get the names of
anyone on this forum who would be interested in these lessons when I resume
producing them. This will be very soon. William, your email has served its
purpose!
The specific intention of these lessons is to provide an alchemical and
spiritual viewpoint for those who access my very political World Wide Free
Press web site and want more than politics. In part, and this is what may
be of interest to members of this forum, the lessons are also intended to
transmit the practice of a little known alchemical meditational system that
I have learned from a Tibetan alchemical school in which, following
traditional alchemy laboratory procedure, one *separates* the physical,
emotional and mental bodies, *purifies* each one separately, and then
*cohabates* them to test what evolutionary changes have occurred.
This is a meditational system which, I believe, is far superior to any
of the usual meditational systems of East or West where the exoteric
assumption seems to be that the meditator simply has to still the physical
body and then there is immediate access to developmental work on a
"spiritual" level. In my opinion, this leaves the meditator with the
emotional and mental and other subtle components entirely jumbled, blocking
any real possibility of purification. The laboratory equivalent of this in
alchemical terms would be the extraction of the salts (the body) with no
differentiation or subsequent purification of the Philosophical Sulphurs
and Philosophical Mercuries.
Since the traditional alchemical texts that we mostly work with come out
of Christian Europe, the references to inner development made in them are
usually based on the exoteric prayer practices of the Roman Church.
Although our Jungian brothers and sisters have made very clever and
meaningful comparisons between the stages described in the alchemical texts
and their own observations of the process of psychological individuation,
they are still largely caught up in the Christian-Judaic concept of a
single soul (or a single personality) and, hence, also can not really apply
the principle of Solve and Coagule (the notion of three coming from one, of
these three being individually purified, and then reuniting as an evolved
One). That is why I have found it of practical importance that the Tibetan
alchemists are able to directly relate their laboratory separations of any
substance into Salt, Sulphur and Mercury to a unique practice of meditation
and inner development where they also conceptualize a separation of the
individual into three distinct bodies as described above. They are able to
do this because their analysis of the anatomy of the human being is not
based on the Judaic-Christian concept of a single soul but on a
multi-dimensional continuum between the physical and subtle realms where
multiple personalities are the norm, not the exception, and where the
concept of "soul" is not taken as a self-evident.
I gave two lectures on this meditational system at the September 1994
seminar of the Philosophers of Nature in St. Charles, Illinois but,
unfortunately, I am told that the tapes of this entire seminar will not be
available for some time to come. As I pointed out in these lectures, in
order to attract the attention of the many at the seminar specifically
interested in magical systems, Aleister Crowley acknowledged the
theoretical superiority of this meditational approach but did not know how
to present it to Westerners in a simple and useful manner. Since I have
gone this far, let me quote from Crowley's words about this on the first
page of his "Little Essays Toward Truth."
"For the purposes of analysing the spiritual nature of man, of recording
and measuring his experiences in this kind, of planning his progress to
loftier heights of attainment, several systems have been devised. That of
the (Buddhist) Abhidhamma is on the surface alike the most practical, the
most scientific, and the most real; but for European students it is
certainly far too unwieldy, to say nothing of other lines of criticism.
"Therefore, despite the dangers of vagueness involved in the use of a
system whose terms are largely symbolic, I have, for many reasons,
preferred to present to the world as an international basis for
classification, the classico-mathematical system which is vulgarly
(although conveniently) called the Qabalah."
So, having thrown out these teasers that a specifically alchemical and
practical system of inner development has been used in Tibet but is
relatively unknown in the West, I will leave the subject rest for the time
being. However, I do want to clarify in closing that I am not counterposing
this Tibetan approach to the methodology of the Qabalah; On a higher level
I see an integration of the two systems. Incidentally, while writing this
post, I discovered that I have a copy of the outline I distributed at the
Philosophers of Nature seminar for my two session lecture-workshop and I
would be glad to retype this outline and email it to anyone who wants a
little more information. It's just an outline but it might be of help,
especially to those with some experience of Tibetan Buddhism. Please use my
email address given below to request this outline as I don't want to burden
the forum with this.
I have responded as quickly as possible to William's kind words because I
wanted to say asap that the lessons are not yet available. I have left the
announcement of the lessons on my web site simply in order to compile
additional names and address of possible students interested in these
questions for that soon-to-come time when I do distribute this series of
lessons. I ask those on the alchemy forum who have previously expressed
interest in these lessons to please be patient with me.

Cordially, Art Kunkin
[email protected]
My web site is: http://www.wwfreepress.com
This web site now includes a long feature interview with me that
The Los Angeles Times published in March 1996. .