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Alchemy Forum 1301-1350From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 1301-1350.Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive. Fri Jul 05 00:07:56 1996 Subject: 1301 Plant mutations - drugs Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 15:55:40 -0400 From: Rick Grimes Adam McLean wrote: > "If we wish to pursue the topic of drugs in alchemy then we must >show the link to known alchemists or alchemical texts. Aleister >Crowley, Robert Anton Wilson, Timothy Leary, etc., were not >alchemists, or recognised scholars of alchemy." >From: A'yin Da'ath > We can't show any links if we are not allowed to ponder aloud to others. > Very well- The symbols of the red lion and white eagle, or the black dragon- > could these not be related to drugs, and the alchemical process is a system > of producing the mystical/psychological clean slate using psychotropic > substances? As for what you define as alchemy, I must know, or how else > are we to continue discussion. In reference to my last post of Wed. July 3rd, and as a qualifier in regard to Adam's request, my comments about the relation between glandular essential oils [habitat of one's soul], living metallic Sulfur [alchemically produced by the body], and meditative success [consciously understanding ones spiritual insights], were gleaned from several private discussions about such with Frater Albertus. Some of you may not know of Frater Albertus, and those who do may have an assortment of opinions about his veracity. In any case he deserves to be numbered among the alchemists of this century. Definitions to ponder: Alchemy: The raising of vibrations; be it natural or artificial [ i.e., by art.] Alchemist: One who has, by individual effort and inner reflection, arrived at a TRUE state of conscious SELF integration; one who is adept at real self control. A Student of Alchemy: The seeker; the disciple; one who pursues with great passion an inner prompting to pierce the veil of ignorance, overcome the coma of the status-quo. One who seeks the liberation of mind and spirit, and yet assumes full responsibility for the burden of their benefit, which is humble service. Note: The greatest form of humility is TRUTH in all its forms, especially to and within ones self. An Alchemist: To become an Alchemist one does not need to make a Philosopher's Stone, or become adept with the application of magical power. One needs to become ONE with the divine impulse within. Yes, it is a large order, however the truth is that we are all already divine beings. We don't have to acquire it; we only have to liberate it. But we make use of physical achievement to verify our progress and in that way the Stone, Magic, Qabalah, etc. serve us while in the flesh - so to speak. When one does achieve adeptship, through whatever means, a couple of things occur. Contact is made, first on the inner planes, then at some point physically, by adepts of greater responsibility. One then becomes a conscious worker; at first no more than an apprentice, or a Grunt. Ones joy and great fulfillment in this work is in KNOWING what one is doing, rather than in speculating within ones egocentricity and belief milieus. Drugs - to use or not to use? That is the question. Suppose what I have presented is in fact true. Would it not be advantageous to be absolutely clear of mind and body when contact is made? Especially inner contact! If one has become dependent upon the use of chemicals, external to the body's natural chemistry, to explore the inner worlds, how could you be sure of the veracity of your contact? Oh, yes, I know the American Indian Holy men, and True Shaman all over the globe use stimulants. Please, don't make the mistake of comparing your experimentation's with their practices. That would be like comparing a back yard tussle with a professional prize fight. They, for the most part, achieved adeptship under the strictest supervision before they were allowed to practice alone. Twenty five years ago I had the great pleasure of meeting an Ogalala Holy man who apprenticed under his teacher for thirty years before he was even allowed to perform a ceremony solo - and we think our doctors are well trained! At any rate, back to my thought. There are three important things one should consider before using drugs to find Valhalla. 1. They are not needed. 2. They tend to remain in the body as residual toxin which is contrary to the purpose of preparing a clean vessel for the New Wine [real higher consciousness]. 3. Inner contacts that do occur are suspect and dangerous because one will be impaired in verifying them as positive. I should also mention that the contact you seek will not occur, anyway, until the residual toxins are first eliminated. Scores upon scores of books exist that were written by would be adepts, magicians, prophets, gurus, and so on. Many of whom used drugs before during or after their revelations. As to their worth, you must be the judge for yourselves. But I can offer this; after almost forty years in this work I have been down more blind alleys than I can remember. I've learned much from my wondering, experimentation, and self serving folly, but the most valuable thing I learned was that I recognize blind alleys. Drug use for spiritual awakening is a blind alley. Everything I have written is my opinion based upon my own experience. I mean to judge no one. Peace to all, RG Fri Jul 05 08:56:58 1996 Subject: 1302 Theatre Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:42:01 -0500 (CDT) From: John D. O'Brien > I'm very curious as to the connection between humor, alchemy and > drama. Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but I would love to hear > about some of the intriguing functions of humor in this regard. > Chris Investigation reveals that Geoffrey Chaucer was intimately familiar with Alchemy. John D. O'Brien [email protected] Fri Jul 05 11:48:28 1996 Subject: 1303 Is alchemy unique? Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 21:58:00 -0400 From: Jeffrey > From Martin: >Could someone define or explain *self* and *ego*, >and who is meant by *partner* ? The self again ? Jung uses the term ego to mean the center of consciousness, the I that thinks and acts and does. Though the ego has a bad reputation, Jung-and the alchemists-believed it was essential for the alchemical work for without it there would no conscious operator to fuel the work. By self he means the center of the whole personality, including not only conscousness but the unconscious as well. He also means by it the inner divine spark or the god within. I use the self in that sense-to mean the god that wishes to be in matter and to be in the human psyche and world. This god, who must be transformed in the alchemical work, is the partner for itbecomes married to the ego the coniunctio or union. My whole idea is that alchemy is about bringing the divine into matter, as self, so that it can marry the ego and lift the ego into spirit, so that spirit and matter become one. One alchemist goes so far as to say every part of the physical body becomes divine, including sexual organs and instinctual energy.So, the ego instead of being killed off becomes god, as the self-god becomes personal. Hope that helps explain it a little. There is a nice book on alchemy and Jung called Anatomy of the Pscyhe by Eddinger which explains more of these terms. Fri Jul 05 11:48:32 1996 Subject: 1304 Johannes Fabricius Date: Fri, 5 Jul 96 18:50 NZST From: Pat Zalewski >Can anyone tell me anything about a book on Alchemy by Johannes >Fabricius When was it written? What is his "angle"? > >Any information appreciated. It's basically psychological, but he has married it together with some basic theories on the practical as well. Actually I quite like it. I could not find Cowley or Leary mentioned but am looking hard in the bibliography section. Pat zalewski Sat Jul 06 18:17:08 1996 Subject: 1305 Openness From: John Chas Webb Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:39:26 -1000 DARREN M SWANICK wrote: >this age, for there have been other times in the past where society was >open to new ideas, but then >the fear of humanity took hold and many seekers were hunted and put to >death for their beliefs, although many of us hope that this is the >age of the great revelation, we must be wary that humanity can revert >back to their darker past. > DMS John D. O'Brien responded: >Excellent point; there are a lot of narrow-minded people out amongst >the masses. Even a few in our midst, I dare think. >But then, most Alchemists have been smart enough to recognize when >the going is getting tough, that it's time to get going. **************************************************************** The Alchemist extracts him or herself from the "masses" and associates with others who have dedicated themselves to "The Great Work". The transition from ape to Man is not as contrasting as the transition of Man to "The Golden One" or divinized man or woman! The Alchemist's key in dealing with the masses is one of compassion and, whenever possible, love. The accomplished Alchemist finds that "The Golden Rule" works true magic. Wherever and whenever the Alchemist is unable to love or act compassionately it is there that the Alchemist finds "some dross" that has corrupted his or her "gold". An accomplished adept who has diligently worked to change lead (encumbering weight) to gold (the inner light) is free of all harsh criticisms and free of fear (more dross). The power and light which they have restored transforms all circumstances and merges them with the natural flow of life (which is to produce "gold"). Harsh criticism is a perfect example of "mercury" as a highly toxic substance. In esoteric alchemy Mercury represents the mind, or more particularly one's thought processes. Because thought has a creative function negative thoughts then are "toxic" as they poison the consciousness which in turn poisons one's experience of "reality". One great accomplishment of the Alchemist is to eliminate the toxic consequences of Mercury by exercising extreme care (monitoring and realigning the thought processes). An Alchemist apprentice working under the guidance of a master can be continually reminded of the importance of the care in dealing with Mercury! Lab experiments then become the arena in which the master instructs the apprentice, otherwise the wayward apprentice eventually poisons him or herself because of unawareness of how highly toxic Mercury can be. Regarding the approach to the "new age" it is important to remember that much of our written history regards the Piscean Age. As Alchemists are traditionally aware of astronomy and its humanistic spinoff, astrology, they then are keenly apprised of the significance of the sign of Pisces. The emerging age is Aquarius and portends a radical and gradual shift in human consciousness. To accelerate the appearance of the "new age" the Alchemist works to purify his or her consciousness (as partially mentioned above) and then begins to actively participate in the creation of a new Golden Age! Try the following experiment! Spend one whole day seeing everyone whom you contact as a dear friend! (Notice your initial reaction to this experiment as it may reveal toxins) If the experiment works then "fix" your result as your new "origination point"! I have past through this phase of dealing with Mercury and share my experience with you in the spirit of goodwill and brotherly guidance. Very Best Regards! John Chas Webb [email protected] Sat Jul 06 18:17:21 1996 Subject: 1306 Is alchemy unique? From: John Chas Webb Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:59:06 -1000 | >From: Jeffrey | >.....The self shares the same personality with the ego, which is how god | >becomes human, while the ego shares the divinity of its partner which is | >how man becomes divine... | | Could someone define or explain *self* and *ego*, | and who is meant by *partner* ? The self again ? | | Thanks! | Martin The intermix of the attributes which you have mentioned above is a perfect example of an "ore". Substances which contain varying amounts of different ingredients are symbols of the possibilities of the range and colour of human consciousness. It is the work of the Alchemist to arrange and rearrange these "ingredients" to arrive at a more pleasing experience of the "self". I'll give you a clue! All of the terms which you have used describe the same thing! The accomplished Alchemist can rearrange the ratios of the ingredients if they are standing upon the Philosopher's Stone. The mind cannot grasp it because it is not a "thing". Huh ? John Chas Webb [email protected] Sat Jul 06 18:17:29 1996 Subject: 1307 Christians and mysticism Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:35:07 -0700 From: joshua geller Subject: 1215 Christians and mysticism > From: John D. O'Brien > > other gods (I believe. Please correct me if I am wrong). This either makes > > them non-Christian, or enhances their faith to such a degree that > > they have become, in fact, more Christian than your average > > Church goer or Priest. > We Mormons consider ourselves Christian although some other Christian > denominations don't want to accept that. We also acknowledge "other gods" > although there is no worship of "other gods", even Jesus. yes. many christian sects have as radical a theology, though perhaps in different directions. christianity started off a lot more theologically diverse than it later became. what happened was that the catholic ('orthodox') church formed a partnership with the roman state and of course immediately started using the coercive power of the state to suppress the 'minority' sects (all of them were minorities: the 'orthodox' were (usually) the single largest sect. of course once they wiped out the other minorities they were the majority sect. funny how that works. the reformation broke the catholic/'orthodox' monopoly on theological correctness. since then many sects have experimented with all sorts of diverse theologies. the mistake is accepting any one of them as the 'one true way' (of course if you are a *devout* mormon you will disagree with this, as will most devout sectarians of any kind). josh Sat Jul 06 18:26:33 1996 Subject: 1308 Christians and mysticism I think this particular thread on Christians and mysticism, has really wandered a bit far from our subject of alchemy. There are a lot of Christian mystical resonances with alchemy, for example, I am at the moment transcribing a manuscript of a 17th century mystic called John Pordage, who does explore alchemical ideas. There are many rich ways of looking at alchemy with reference to christian mysticism. The thread of discussion on Christians and mysticism does not, however, appear to be addressing alchemy in any way. Let us try and focus our discussions on our chosen subject. Adam McLean Sat Jul 06 18:26:35 1996 Subject: 1309 Christians and mysticism Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:55:15 -0700 From: joshua geller > Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:56:19 -0600 > From: fisher > Check out Allegro's book, The Cipher of Genesis for a scholarly discussion > of ELOHIM-M/F including its gematria along with an in depth peak at the > "true" meaning of Genesis. john allegro? you mean john 'sumerian roots of hebrew' allegro? josh Sat Jul 06 18:26:37 1996 Subject: 1310 Theatre From: John Chas Webb Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:58:51 -1000 | From: Christopher L. Chiappari | | Dear William Hollister, | I'm very curious as to the connection between humor, alchemy and | drama. Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but I would love to | hear about some of the intriguing functions of humor in this regard. | | Thanks, | Chris The world renowned genius in this area is William Shakespeare. John Chas Webb [email protected] ----------------------------- Dear John Chas Webb, I think the original posters of this enquiry wanted to explore in more detail the links between the Theatre and alchemy. Can you expand a bit more on Shakespeare and alchemy? Adam McLean Sat Jul 06 18:26:39 1996 Subject: 1311 Homunculus Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:38:21 -0700 From: joshua geller > From: Pat Zalewski > >About the matter of the homunculus I have taken a part of "The Magical > >Revival" by Kenneth Grant. One may think about Mr. Grant, what > >ever may want, but as a collector he is great. The formula > >described in the following is very usefull and if intelligent > >changed and modified, it works VERY well. >.... Spare was also a genius of sorts ( I do not use the term > lightly) and had the ability to condense his etheric body through the > framework of a sigil with the release point being an orgasm, in many > respects what he acomplished was very Reichen. The point I am getting at > here is ,is this alchemy or sexual magic or a combination of both? > It may be not quite within the brief of this forum's discussion. it's at least as alchemical as the jungian stuff. there are lots of relations between archaeoastronomy, various magickal sex practices and practical laboratory alchemy. I share your strong bent towards laboratory practices: this does not mean that the sexual stuff is not valid. josh Sun Jul 07 13:21:49 1996 Subject: 1312 Consciousness Date: Sat, 6 Jul 96 16:41 NZST From: Pat Zalewski >From: Barry Carter, >Is all the talk about alchemy being not just to change lead to gold >but to find the Philosopher's Stone in order to change conciousness >just window dressing? Barry Carter, If you want just a change in consciousness then I suggest you try Jungian psychology or alt. zen something or other. The parameters of alchemy are well known to most in the group, and it is not always the ultimate desire to change consciousness, but it is the experience of learning upon a certain pathway that perhaps may lead to it. In my opinion it is the learning experience that soul or spirit craves, not always the desired result. What we are trying to do in alchemy is map and control areas of the work (or our psyche) so that we know how it works along preconceived function. I am a practical alchemist, like many in this forum. But before one is a practical alchemist the imagery must be studied and understood first. Some like Waite, do not take the practical step, but still study its imagery, again the journey, not always the end result that counts Pat zalewski Sun Jul 07 17:29:04 1996 From: Adam McLean Subject: Drugs thread abandoned on alchemy forum - new mailgroup? The recent thread on drugs, Crowley, etc., has degenerated into people taking up rigid positions, posturing and making silly points. I have suspended this thread and will not post any more messages on these subjects. I received nearly 20 contributions over the weekend, none of these will be posted onto the forum. It is obvious to me that a number of people want to discuss drugs, hallucinogenics, Crowley, Leary, McKenna, etc. but I have come to the conclusion that this is not applicable to the alchemy forum. Consequently I have written to the main people posting on the side of drugs, Crowley etc., and suggested that they themselves form a mail group on this subject. Once they have an address for subscriptions I will post a message to the alchemy forum informing us all of the creation of this new mailing group, so that anyone who wants to pursue these topics further can do so. With my best wishes, Adam Mclean Tue Jul 09 10:15:26 1996 Subject: 1313 The targets of alchemy Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 02:42 +0100 From: Waldemar Hammel I am a student of physics and philosophy here at the university of Aachen. As a newcomer in this forum I would like to know if you really have desires to change lead into gold by the known alchemistic operations? What is the difference between a practical and a theoretical alchemist? Are you really running laboratories in the old-fashioned style? To my opinion the art of alchemy is belonging to the history of human perception and the developement of human consciousness. Knowledge of this is very important (e.g. discovering a semantical information theory, my hobby!), but it makes no sense to stand in a laboratory and try to change lead into gold today, as we are informed better about nature than in former times. So I would like to ask: What sense makes active alchemy today? What kinds of desires has it, what are it�s targets? Waldemar Hammel Tue Jul 09 10:15:29 1996 Subject: 1314 Is alchemy unique? From: John Chas Webb To: "Alchemy forum" Re: 1303 Is alchemy unique? Consider this: If Jung was totally correct then there would certainly be many enlighted/Alchemist Phd.'s. By thinking that YOU bring the divine into matter is precisely the error. Many of the alchemical texts relate "tales of horror" (dismemberment, being mashed into oblivion) which relate the death of the ego. This is a necessary step to allowing the divine (the gold) to enter into the "space" which was formerly occupied by the renegade ego. The ego becomes the "bride" of this divine energy suggesting, in an historical and patriarchial way, that the ego becomes the servant of the Light. The problem which alchemy attempts to address is where the EGO has already become "god". The EGO is not lifted into spirit, it is dis-integrated as it surrenders to spirit (dismembered). The result which you speak of (the divination of the body) is certainly possible, however, transcending "animal" passions helps the distillation process as the gold is extracted from the base metal. The personal will, which corresponds to the planet Mars, is represented by iron. What the Alchemist does to iron is what the spirit must do to the ego in the transmutation process. To the extent that you use the term "ego" to define an "individual self" you are correct. After the successful completion of the process a new self is created, however, it only becomes "an EGO" if your are unfortunate enough to become aware of it! Because once you re-notice that you have an "ego" you "fall" back into separation and the alchemical marriage goes on the skids! Now you see it, now you don't, John Chas Webb [email protected] Tue Jul 09 10:15:33 1996 Subject: 1315 Czech Alchemy - Franz Bardon From: UDV Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:01:43 +-200 >From: Rawn Clark >Thank you for your outline of Czech alchemists! I am wondering if >you know any details of the life of another Czech, Franz Bardon? >Do you by chance know if there are any Czech alchemists who >incorporate Bardon's teachings in their practice of alchemy? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - He was born in the year 1909 in Opava and worked in Germany as variety artist called Frabato. The Prague hermetic circle Universalia interrupted contact with Bardon because of his behaviour. Bardon was a pupil of Wilhelm Quintscher /Rah- Omir/ and he was very skillful in astral operations. He summoned a flash in the sunny day during a quarrel in distict Vinohrady in Prague. This story was written also in newspapers. He studied spagyric and homeopathic medicine in his laboratory in Opava. For the sake of this he was arrested in the 1958 and in July 1958 he died in the Brno prison. He was chief of ocult circles in Prague - Holesovice, street Komunardu. He wrote this book: Praction of magic evokacion 1,2 Key to real cabala Gate to real initiation Frabato - roman In these books are many discusionable parts, for example genii (spirits) of Jupiters zone - names, with Bardon named Jupiter's genii belong to Saturn zone, some signs of genius and antigenius are mistakes. Bardon's great contribution is in the large number of names of geniuses, which were published in his books. Martin from Czech Tue Jul 09 10:15:35 1996 Subject: 1316 Alchemy today Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 15:38 +0100 From: Waldemar Hammel First in history existed the natural philosophy (NP), it was founded on a binary logic: up and down, yesterday and tomorrow, good and bad, heaven and hell etc. Even the language follows that binary principle, all human perception does and the human consciousness too. Nature seems to follow the same principle: It has a hardware (the chemicals and the elements, quantity) and a software (the meanings of these hardware elements, the symbolisms, quality). One we can call syntax (hardware), and the other semantic (software). Nature may not really be like that, but human perception shows it to us in that way! Perception works like this: to recognize for example a chemical element we must seperate it from its original background, because we are unable to recognize the whole world and all the connections in it in one time (that would be called holistic recognition). When the element is seperated initializing the act of recognition it looses all its original semantics (original interactions) and by this would be out of existence (hardware without semantic simply does not exist, because it carries no interactions). To give it existence to be able to recognize it, perception charges that piece of hardware newly with semantics, but these are quasi private-semantics generated by the observer. With these semantics the element is dressed (these semantics are called attributes). After that the observer has got a piece of hardware with attributes on it, and it seems, that the attributes are element-inherent, but they are not! They are made by the recognition of the observer. Seeing a foreshadow of that principle alchemy started. Since thousands of years they try to take away the attributes (semantics) from one element (e.g. sulphur) and to give them to another (e.g. lead). (Gold described as yellow and heavy metal). When you accept the above described, alchemy is the logical consequence. When the attributes of things are generated not by things themselves but by our perception, we should be able to manipulate these attributes, change them etc. As concerning to perception and consciousness you must go the inner way to theoretical alchemy, changing perception and consciousness, its the inner, the mental laboratory of alchemia (that way always comes together with religious and psychological ideas and phantasies). There is also the place of the important language laboratory of alchemia. As concerning to hardware and its attributes you must go into a real laboratory, it is the outer way of alchemia. That outer way is more or less the inversion of the inner way, and both ways are able to learn from each other, consecutively trying to find the real >language of nature<. In the real laboratory the alchemist tries to manipulate the hardware and by this to learn about his perception principles. The alchemy game goes between perception and consciousness on one side and natures hardware (objects of perception) on the other. It originally concerns all objects of perception in this world, that the normal alchemist only works with chemical elements is only analogical, its an easy way to try out the above principles and problems. Originally alchemia treats with all things of perception observable in this world. The inner and the outer way of alchemia are complementary ways, the principle is a binary one as (+) and (-). Alchemia tries to have a holistic view of world, when they say e.g. minerals grow like animals they may have an idea of what we call ecosphere, or when they search the general principle behind the creation of elements (in our perception), and element here means any element (object) in the world you want, not only chemical elements. They try to get sure about the unity of world, but as long as they suffer from binary religious pictures (God and Devil, good and bad) this philosophy is corrupted. I think it was Hermes who said: as it is above it is at the bottom.... That speaks about unity of this world behind all the foreground differences and contradictions. So the usual God cannot belong to the unified principle of alchemia, although he may be included in it, because he is in struggles with his antipart, the Devil. The unified principle must be searched behind that language sponsored bivalent imaginations.(Wittgenstein) (Therefore alchemia runs a language laboratory with semantic and iconic experiments as well, look Abulafia et al. Cabbalists). When alchemia would put that work in the foreground of its activities again, it would experience the same kind of war against the churches as in the middle ages. That would make alchemia dangerous again to all who have their world in order and are saturated with the normal, unpretentious perception. By doing that, alchemia would have massive interactions to modern linguistics and physics, which are to my opinion the true native place of alchemia (and not chemistry, as most of the people think by suggestion of the word >alchemy<). Alchemy could become the highest level of natural philosophy again as a bracket connecting the science of consciousness and recognition to linguistics (including mathematics) and nature sciences as physics, chemistry, etc., and pseudo-nature-sciences as medicine and psychology etc. By doing that it would work out the philosophy of a unified world of which human is an integrated part, bringing together the symbolic quality-entity world of the middle ages with the modern syntax-based quantity world. That would need a new language and a new consciousness, non-binary logics. New age movements, the believe in indian philosophy, ecology movement, the physicists search for a unified theory of universe, all that are stand-alone experiments in that right direction, but without the integrative power which would be needed. Alchemia could deliver that power because it is basical unconventional, not limited by cultural, religious, and temporal censorships. That is what I think about alchemia, it could become a great modern science, when it would be able to translate the seeming old fashioned questions into modern language (because in reality the modern questions are the same!) and modern conditions (human perception always works the same way, with all its mistakes). By doing this, alchemia would take that responsibility for human development again, with which the forefathers charged it. Alchemia was not created to be a profane building for the crowd and their wishes to make gold or money, nor had it the intention to be a habour for paranoid or psychotic ill people, nor was the intention to be a leisure-time-joke for saturated and degenerated societies. When the transformation into modern alchemia is not made, it comes down to an old fashioned nonsense-ideology (in that corner most people see it today already, e.g. at the university of Aachen where the philosophers! make laughable courses about alchemy, showing an astronomical ignorance about the real implications of that art). That fullfills the old law, that every wisdom sounds like nonsense when communicated in the false way. I would like to experience the opinions of the others on this web-site concerning that theme. greetings Waldemar Hammel Tue Jul 09 10:15:46 1996 Subject: 1317 Need Living Spirit of Nitre ? Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:56:19 -0400 From: Russ House An associate who is a practicing alchemist asked that I see if there is any demand for living Spirit of Nitre. It is produced by him in a stainless steel retort using native vitriol (copper sulphate) and native sodium nitrate (Chilean saltpeter), using a classical method of production. The Chilean saltpeter has been only minimally processed, having been crystalized only once from the nitre in the soil, so it is quite 'alive'. He will also be examining the different qualities of potassium nitrate vs sodium nitrate. As such, it is a 'living' nitric acid. Not the acid of Leary, Alpert, et al. ;-) At this point he has no idea of pricing, but would establish that after he begins production. It would be available for shipment in the US (including Alaska), Canada, and to places where UPS can ship. If this is of interest to you please contact me, and let me know how much of the material you would want, assuming that it is affordable. Email to Russ House at [email protected]. Also, we are looking for sources for the following materials: Native potassium nitrate Crystalline native cerussite (lead carbonate ore) Native cinnabar Thanks, Russ House Tue Jul 09 10:15:55 1996 Subject: 1318 Scholars of alchemy Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:50:36 -0700 (PDT) From: R. Brzustowicz > Modern exact scholarship did not really exist much before the end of the > 19th century. Sure, there were many alchemical writings before this time, > but not works of scholarly analysis. This did not come into existence till > the modern period. I would like to recommend the doctoral dissertation of Kathleen Malone O'Connor, 'The Alchemical Creation of Life (Takwin) and Other Concepts of Genesis in Medieval Islam'. Even this one work would I think qualify O'Connor as a scholar of alchemy. (UMI order No 9503804) R Brzustowicz ([email protected]) Tue Jul 09 12:12:25 1996 Subject: 1319 Nicholas Flamel A couple of weeks ago I met an american colleague in Glasgow University Library. We had a discussion on Nicholas Flamel. I am not entirely sure what the scholarly status of Nicholas Flamel is at present. Is there any documentary evidence (contemporary records) of his existence before the first appearance at the end of the 16th century of alchemical writings attributed to him? In the late 18th century �tienne-Fran�ois Villain, wrote a series of books documenting Flamel. Is this the only source we have for the Flamel history? Essai d'une histoire de la paroisse de Saint Jacques de la Boucherie, o� l'on traite de l'origine de cette eglise; de ses antiquit�s; de Nicolas Flamel et Pernelle sa femme, et de plusieurs autres choses remarquables; avec les Plans de la construction et du Territoire de la Paroisse, grav�s en taille-douce. Ouvrage int�ressant pour les Paroissiens, et pour les Personnes qui aiment l'Antiquit�. Par M.L** V**[illain]. Paris, 1758. Histoire critique de Nicolas Flamel et de Pernelle sa femme; recueillie d'Actes anciens qui justificent l'origine et la m�diocrit� de leur fortune contre les imputations des alchimistes. On y a joint le Testament de Pernelle et plusieurs autres Pieces int�ressantes. Par M. L. V***, Paris, 1761. Vie de Nicolas Flamel et de Pernelle sa femme..., Paris, 1782. It would be good to clear up this point of the legend and the documented facts regarding Flamel. Adam McLean Tue Jul 09 12:38:26 1996 Subject: 1320 Theatre (France) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:27:50 +0000 From: Joel Tetard Chris wrote : > I'm very curious as to the connection between humor, alchemy and > drama. Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but I would love to hear > about some of the intriguing functions of humor in this regard. > Jacques Breyer wrote in French a very curious text which could be of some interest to people looking for relationship between modern theatre and alchemy, tarot,mythology, and esoterism in general... "Oubah. Une Trilogie-Operative, puisee au Sang du Baphomet, Culte Magique des Templiers." Self published in 1970. Breyer, 43 rue Condorcet, 75009 Paris. This text is written for "toute Personne ayant Compris la "Farce" par dela les �glises, et qui peut donc en rire avec Dieu au-dessus des partis". Note to French readers : ce texte a ete trouve par hazard (?) en farfouillant dans les bacs des vendeurs de livres � prix brades... Bonne chasse ! Best wiches Joel Tetard Tue Jul 09 12:38:31 1996 Subject: 1321 Music and alchemy Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:37:46 +0000 From: Joel Tetard For every people who are looking for relationship between alchemy and music : 1) Some words about musical scales which take a very important place in most of philosophical works from the early antiquity to the end of XVIII. As every pianist would (should) tell you, the modern scale used for keyboards and other musical instruments having "fixed" sounds is in fact "out of tune" in order to match with other instruments (brass instruments mainly). This scale was build in order to have equal semi-tones and is in fact a kind of "aggrement" between antagonist interests (see your favorite ancyclopedia for more information on the subject !). Before the coming of this scale, occidental music was based on a large number of tuning systems. A well-known system is the Pythagorean scale which is build on "pure quintes" (I did not find the translation from French. Sorry...). [Harmonics?]. This scale matches well with physical possibilities of wind instruments (brass), has good musical properties and could be linked to philosophical symbolism (see for instance Robert Fludd "Utriusque cosmi historia" 1617). Starting from a C ("arbitrary" tuned but in fact you are your own "pitchpipe"...) you could build the Pithagoreean's scale using a single constant ratio (for having "pure" quinte) : C * (3/2) = G G * (3/2) = D R * (3/2) = A A * (3/2) = E E * (3/2) = B B * (3/2) = F (sharp) Reducing all these note to the same "octave" you will obtain the following series : C D E F G A B C 9/8 9/8 256/243 9/8 9/8 9/8 256/243 This scale is used nowadays for playing traditional instruments such as Bagpipes (Highland Scottish ones, but also in Mongolia, Spain, France, Maroco, etc...Pipes are a large world !), Appalacian Dulcimers and other instruments using drones. (I am very fond of all of them !). According to some authors (Atorene for exemple) a close relationship exists between notes, days, planets and metals : English system Latin system Day of the week Planets/metals C Do Lunae dies Moon/silver G Sol Martis dies Mars/Iron D Re Mercurii dies Mercury/Quick silver A La Jovis dies Jupiter/ E Mi Veneris dies Venus/Cooper B Si Saturni dies Saturn/lead F Fa Solis dies Sun/Gold) Now, based on the previous "quinte serial", we can build the following figure which is certainly known by most of the Forum's friends : C/Moon/Siver B/Saturn/lead D/Mercury/Quick silver A/Jupiter/Tin E/Venus/cooper G/Mars/Iron F/Sun/gold This figure is an "heptagram" which could be found in a great number of alchemical books... The traditional scale serial could be build in turning clockwise from C. 2. "Natural scales" are commonly used in traditional musics in ALL parts of the world. (Traditional Music, as for cooking, is in fact a real cure against racism !). Looking for the different ways of singing or tuning instruments around the world you will find how we lost contact with our original roots and how poor we are with our "improved" modern scale... (Pssss, let me to tell you THE terrific secret : In fact, most of commercial music is based on this "modern scale" and are a tool used by a worldwide "a-culturation" conspiracy, in order to make a "brave new world" based on a unique "aesthetic" system... ;-) (Further discussions on this matter ?...Please, not in this forum !) >From an other point of view, which could be linked to a kind of "musical yoga", Natural musical scales could be used for diphonic songs, i.e. the "Art of singing several voices in the same time" (Diplomacy, "language of the Birds" or Phonetic Cabala ?...). This way of singing was fairly common in Asia (Mongolia, Thibet) and I guess it was the "right" way of singing occidental Gregorian (please... see above !). Singers produce two or even more harmonics of a fundamental note (used as a kind of drone), using their internal resonators (mouth, sinus, stomach, etc.). Some of you would be happy to notice there is an obvious link between these "resonators" and Chakras... Due to the fact it is more easy to practice this kind of Art rather than to explain it, I prefer to give you the references of David Hykes'record which is a real master piece. Try to find your own harmonics !!! 3. Alchemy is said to be "Art of Music". For more information on this matter which is in fact closely link to practical alchemy (rather than speculative alchemy. Indeed !) see Canseliet's "L'Alchimy expliqu�e sur ces textes classiques" and Atorene's "Laboratoire alchimique". Solazaref's books which would be very helpfull too !. 4. Thibetan "singing bowls" are been said to be made of the seven planetary metals. The way of making these wonderfull instruments is secret but I guess some link would exist with Occidental Alchemy (see Vigener's "particulier" and Solazaref's Introitus...) In order to be "in tune" with all these matters I suggest the following records : Hildegard Von Bingen (1098-1179) : - "Ordo Virtutum" (play of the Virtues)". by Carmen-Renate Koper, William Mockridge and Sequentia singers. Deutsche Harmonia Mundi (D-7800 Freiburg). Ref : GD77051 - "Chants de l'extase". by Carmen-Renate Koper, William Mockridge and Sequentia singers. Deutsche Harmonia Mundi (D-7800 Freiburg). Ref : 05472 7752 - "Symphonia-Spiritual Songs". Sequentia singers. Deutsche Harmonia Mundi (D-7800 Freiburg). Ref : GD 77020 Note : Hildegard Von Bingen was said to be an alchemist (?). Actually, she wrote several books on plants. She was one of the spiritual lights of the Occidental World. Her music is wonderfull !!! Iegor Reznikoff : "Alleluias et offertoires des Gaules" Harmonia Mundi SA, Mas de Vert, F-13200 Arles, France Ref : HMA 1901044. Iegor Reznikoff teaches Philosophy in Paris X Nanterre University (F-92000 Nanterre). He did important works concerning the ways of singing Gregorian. "His originality and seriousness derive from the fact that, for the first time since at least the 16th century, it appears that someone has taken into consideration the oldest surviving neumatic manuscripts as well as esthno-musicological knowledge. [...] The following are some of the elements Reznikoff has taken into account : the Indo-European basis ; the "Oriental", i.e; Jewish and especially Greek influences which constantly affected the Gaules" (previous name of the westen part of Europe which became France, Belgium and North Italy). David Hykes and the Harmonic Choir : "Hearing Solar Winds" OCORA-Radio France.Sept. 1988. Reprint in 1989. Available form Harmonia Mundi France. Ref: HM 90. Actually, all these records are powerful "soul tuners"... Oh, so much words and noises !!! Let's place to the Art of Music now... Best wiches. J Tetard Ut queant laxis Resonare fibris... Thu Jul 04 16:18:46 1996 Subject: 1322 Theatre Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:33:14 +0100 From: William Hollister >I'm very curious as to the connection between humor, alchemy and >drama. Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but I would love to hear >about some of the intriguing functions of humor in this regard. Did Robert Fludd really base his memory system on Shakespeare's Globe Theater? Is it true that Strindberg, in his Occult Diaries, complained that everyone was persecuting him with the scent of celery? Is the comic section of Ben Johnson's The Alchemist a mocking, but very efficient way of delivering an allegorical text? When Johann Valentin Andreae referred to his Chemical Wedding as a "Ludibrium," (play, joke, amusement), was not the Lutheran Minister giving backhanded credit to the Rosicrucian movement? Perhaps through dramatic humor we can transcend the earthly fiction that a Gnostic deamon condemned us to live in. Certainly the Chemical wedding is a dramatic interpretation of an alchemical process. My question is simple: how can that drama be carried out in the late twentieth century. Would it have to be modified in any way? Did it ever "work" as "theatre?" It is this last point that I would most like to see a larger discussion. I understand that Shakespeare is not an alchemist, but a British renaissance thinker. His use of Allegorical drama is most interesting in the fourth act of The Tempest. Peter Greenaway's film interpretation interprets The Tempest in a remarkable alchemical way. The images in that film strike the imagination in wonderful ways; however, the film did not "entertain" me, and the images are left to float in my imagination without a lasting structure. Andreae apparently wrote several plays "of a Shakespearian type." Were they entertaining? [email protected] Wed Jul 10 23:53:16 1996 Subject: 1323 Sol, Luna, Earth. Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:43:40 -0400 From: RawnClark In Joel Tetard's wonderful post on musical scales new and old, he correlates his findings to the heptagram of planets/metals. This brought to mind several alchemical figures which seem to be depicting a specific passage of the Work, in which the seven planets are arrayed in a specific pattern. The pattern of planets varies from figure to figure, from artist to artist, but the overall intent seems common to each. I have read, though cannot now pinpoint where I read it, that the Sun brings the influence of the other planets with him. While this idea is infered in some of the figures, it seems absent from others. In my process of trying to understand these symbols' practical meaning, my mind keeps returning to an examination of the planetary symbols themselves. When I look at them, they seem to be graphically depicting the relationship and movement of related forces. These forces are specifically Sol, Luna and Earth, symbolized by circle, crescent and equal-armed cross, respectively. I've been trying to place them in a sequence that made alchemical sense to me, to somehow line them up in an order that revealed the overall symbol's meaning. [I should note here that I am completely aware of the fact that the planetary symbols are also graphic descriptions of the physical properties of their respective metals. I think however, that they mean more than just this in many alchemical figures.] My inclination to a strict Qabbalistic sequencing nets me very little in relation to a physical work (though it provides ample inspiration for a "spiritual" work!). Of the many options I've examined, few have been very satisfying. However, as in all learning and especially in the learning of alchemy, my perspective grows and what made no sense before often makes glaringly simple sense at a later date. ;-) Such was the case when I placed the planetary symbols in sequence determined by the tonal correspondences provided by Joel. Lining them up, A through G, nets the sequence: Jupiter, Saturn, Luna, Mercury, Venus, Sol, Mars. I have toyed with this sequence previously, but didn't see it then in the same light as I do now. Based upon my studies of alchemical literature...*and not upon extensive laboratory work, so I'm speculating here*...I place this part of the process represented by the 7-planets-arrayed glyph in the preparatory work of maturing the Green Lion. I speculate that this seven-fold process results in a) the Red Lion (holding within it the Sal and Sulphur); and b) the Spirits (holding within it the Mercury). Placed in the above tenuous and unproven context of my speculation, I line up the planetary symbols into the following meaning: A) Jupiter -- Luna descending upon the surface of the materia. B) Saturn -- Luna penetrates the materia. C) Luna -- The materia is completely Lunarized. D) Mercury -- Luna brings Sol to the materia (either the Sol which lies within her reflection of light, or this is an inference to Luna's magnetic pull of Sol's Electric push). E) Venus -- Sol descending upon the materia. F) Sol -- The materia is completely Solarized. G) Mars -- Sol penetrates the materia. outward. This seems to lead the materia through a process which begins with the materia as a passive thing and ends with it as a radiant, emergant force. Luna acts as a soft force, as it were, bringing with her, the seed of activity, or the sol-light at her core. But still this explanation is dissatisfying. There are too many things dangling, too many gaping holes in its apparant applicability to the laboratory Work. My laboratory experience being what it is (minimal), I am at a standstill in deciphering this symbol's meaning and realize that only more lab experience will remedy the situation. Until I do aquire sufficient lab acumen, I would greatly appreciate Forum comments on my line of thinking. A main question, assuming I'm on the right track, is do these 7 planets symbolize a process that occurs during the sequential separation of the spirits, essentially enacted upon the cloud of spirits themselves; or do they refer to the forces which cause the actual separation of the spirits? Best to you, :) Rawn Clark 10 July 96 Thu Jul 11 13:08:33 1996 Subject: New mailing group on hallucinogenics Graeme Wilson has agreed to act as the coordinator of a new mailing group to continue the thread of discussion on drugs, Crowley etc. To subscribe you should contact him at [email protected] Adam McLean Fri Jul 12 09:39:24 1996 Subject: 1324 Arcanum Experiment Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:30:55 -0700 From: Dennis William Hauck I have translated the work of the eighteenth century German alchemist, Dr. Gottlieb Latz, and am fascinated by his innovative lifelong work with the Emerald Tablet, in particular, his deciphering of a chemical formula from early Latin versions. He posits that the seven chemicals described in the Tablet are components of the Arcanum Experiment, the single laboratory experiment which openly demonstrates all the principles of alchemy. In particular, he references two compounds called "Pulvis Solaris" and "Liquor Hepatis." Is anyone familiar with these terms and know their formula? From my progress so far in the translation, it seems that the Pulvis contains "sulfur auratum" and red mercuric oxide. The Liquor seems to be composed of hydrogen sulfide and ammonia. However, I think there may be other ingredients or impurites involved in the original formula that are not available today. Anyone have any ideas? Fri Jul 12 09:39:33 1996 Subject: 1325 On Exhalations Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:33:02 -0600 From: Patrick J. Smith Aristotle divided the physical world into the four elements: earth, water, air, and fire. This division represented the first (four-fold) differentiation of the unpatterned substrate (first matter) that underlay the universe. While it is well known that the alchemists adopted this Aristotelian division, it is perhaps less well known that these were not strict divisions: one level graduated into another. Thus there were some "earths" which were extremely gross (lead for instance) and others which were much more subtle (such as beeswax). The earths could be arranged in a scale of ascending subtlety that eventually became a gross or heavy water. Similarly, different "waters" could be arranged into a scale of increasing subtlety until they merged into the denser forms of air---the mists and so forth that hang near the earth and sea. In turn, air graduated into fire, and fire (which was considered a completely passive element) was graduated into the most subtle form which, some imagined, surrounded the throne of God. The true Aristotelian elements were ideal substances never found in nature. The air that we breathe, for instance, was thought to be a mixture of all four elements in which air happens to preponderate. To alchemists, there was also *not* a strict division between matter and spirit. The more subtle something was, the more spirit-like. And conversely, the more gross something was, the more material-like. This concept, which is unlike the current strict separation of these two, becomes especially apparent in considering the ancient meaning of *spirit*. The Greek word *pneuma* could mean *spirit*, *air*, *breath*, or *wind*. Its hebrew equivalent is *ruach*, which has a similar range of meanings. In Latin, *spiritus* can also mean both *breath* and *spirit*, and could refer to either a universal spirit or Anima Mundi, or the individualized spirit of a man or other living creature. A line from the Egyptian `Book of Breathings' (the SenSen papyrus), which was used to insure the afterlife of the dead, reads: "He will breathe like the soul[s of the gods] for ever and ever." The ancient philosophers observed that the air was in constant motion, and in the movement of the winds, they saw the breath of nature. That air could be felt, but neither seen nor held, was attributed to its subtlety---hence spiritual quality. "Now *Wind*, *Air*, and *Spirit*", wrote H.P.~Blavatsky in `The Secret Doctrine' "have ever been synonymous in every nation. Pneuma (Spirit) and Anemos (Wind), with the Greeks, *Spiritus* and *Ventus*, with the Latins, were convertible terms, even if dissociated from the original idea of the Breath of Life..." The Stoic concept of *pneuma* as the universal world spirit was as much a part of the beginnings of alchemy as was Aristotle's philosophy. Pneuma was thought to be responsible for organizing and controlling all material bodies, and this resulted in the vitalism inherent in alchemy from its inception. When a baby is born, its first task in life is to draw a breath. The child must continue to breathe throughout his life, and, at the end, dies upon drawing his last breath. It should be borne in mind that the ancient philosophers had no conception of oxygen, or its necessity for either fire or metabolism. That discovery would be made many centuries later. It *was* clear, however, that life depended upon the breathing of air. In the first chapter of Genesis (which was said to contain all the secrets of alchemy), God breathed the breath of life into the inanimate clay which became Adam, the first man. Orthelius, a late sixteenth-century alchemist, says that the Spirit was `breathed into all things by the word of God, and embodied in them.' Occultists often link the spirit or divine spark in man with *inspiration*, which means literally something breathed into him. Richard Cavendish writes: "The first chapter of St. John enabled alchemists and occultists to identify the creative Word of God with the Holy Spirit of Genesis, with the life-principle, the divine breath breathed into Adam, and with the spark of divine light trapped in matter." These ideas gave rise to a number of strange practices, such as that cited by Pliny in his Natural History, in which a certain Claudius Hirpanus was said to have lived to the age of 155 years, by inhaling the breath of young women! H.P. Blavatsky quotes Sir W. Grove, F.R.S., as follows: The ancients, when they witnessed a natural phenomenon, removed from ordinary analogies, and unexplained by any mechanical action known to them, referred it to a soul, a spiritual or preternatural power... Air and gases were also at first deemed spiritual, but subsequently they became invested with a more material character; and the same words [pneuma], spirit, etc., were used to signify the soul or a gas; the very word gas, from *geist*, a ghost or spirit, affords us an instance of the gradual transmission of a spiritual into a physical conception. Observe also that such modern words as `pneumatic' are derived from the word `pneuma', and refer to the mechanical use of air. From Aristotelian cosmology, the belief in the underlying unity of the universe led alchemists to suppose that the influence of the universal spirit could be utilized, either through the stars, or by concentrating it within matter -- the philosopher's stone -- thus obtaining that influence in the form of a chemical reagent. F.~Sherwood Taylor wrote: This notion, to us extremely bizarre, is at the root of most of the alchemical practice and it can only be understood by those who have grasped what the ancients meant by ``breath.'' The Greek *pneuma*, the Latin *spiritus*, the Indian *prana* have a very similar significance, but there is no word with such a meaning in modern English because the very idea has disappeared.... Thus early Greek philosophers could say quite simply that the soul was air. They do not, of course, mean to imply that what we call a soul is the same as a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen: simply that the principle of life was a sort of breath. Some likewise regarded the atmosphere as a kind of reservoir of world soul, and thought that living beings existed by drawing in this air---a breath of life out of the soul of the world... Yet at the same time this breath could be transformed into *things*, and Aristotle, in a famous passage which is certainly one of the sources of the idea of alchemy, supposes that all the metals are made of two ``exhalations,'' two vapors, one moist, one dry or smoky, that rise up through the earth... To the two exhalations corresponded the two kinds of bodies that originate in the earth; minerals and metals. The dry exhalation is the cause of all minerals, such as realgar, orpiment, ochre, and sulphur; hence these substances were thought to be composed mainly of the `smoky' exhalation. The `vaporous' exhalation is the cause of all metals, those bodies that are both fusible and malleable. All these originate from the imprisonment of the vaporous exhalation in the earth, the dryness of which compresses it and finally converts it into metal. Hence, Martin Ruland could claim: ``Realgar is properly a Mineral Smoke, which has something of the nature of Orpiment, or Arsenic...'' Realgar is, in fact, an orange-red mineral, arsenic sulphide, which is used in fireworks. But Rulandus can say it is a mineral smoke because it could, apparently, be decomposed into such. It cannot be over-emphasized that neither the Medieval nor ancient alchemists understood the process of combustion, in which oxygen is consumed from the air. If they could have performed some of their experiments in vacuo, they would have observed that the sulphurs, orpiments, and realgars melt just as do the metals. Instead, they observed minerals such as sulphur apparently decompose into smoke! Thus it was easy to assume that they originated from a ``smoky exhalation''. By contrast, the alchemists observed that when metals such as gold were heated sufficiently, they melted, and the resulting liquid exhibited a high surface tension like quicksilver, tending not to stick to surfaces---in effect the melted metals behaved like mercury. Thus the mercurial principle was thought to underlie all metals. Clearly, then, the alchemical principle of sulphur corresponds to the `smoky exhalation', and mercury to the `moist exhalation'. Given the relationship between breath, pneuma, spirit, and the spark of life, it was natural to suppose that the exhalations which diffused through the earth might also be useful for human health. Indeed, Cavendish wrote: Bacon, who is claimed by occultists as a great adept, said that the smell of earth is a tonic medicine. `The following of the plough hath been approved for refreshing the spirits and procuring appetite.' Spring is the best time for this, before the earth has `spent her sweet breath in vegetables put forth in summer', or fresh earth should be turned up with a spade. `Gentlewomen may do themselves much good by kneeling upon a cushion and weeding.' Since the earth is the source of growing crops and vegetation, inhaling its vapours should preserve life, as Bacon hints. `I knew a great man that lived long, who had a clean clod of earth brought to him every morning as he sate in bed: and he would hold his head over it a good pretty while.' The Chinese held similar notions of a ``breath'' flowing through the earth in channels, or veins: Christopher Bird wrote: "The currents, running through *(ching)*, or ``channels,'' carried the vapors or ``vital cosmic breath,'' *(ch'i)*, the equivalent of the *pneuma*, or ``vital spirit,'' of the Greeks..." Since, as it was supposed, metals and minerals originated from these exhalations, it was believed in medieval Europe that one could locate mines by looking for evidence of these exhalations. Agricola, writing in his famous treatise on metallurgy and mining, `De Re Metallica' (1556), suggested that mineral veins could be located by ``...observing the hoar-frosts, which whiten all herbage except that growing over the veins, because the veins emit a warm and dry exhalation which hinders the freezing of the moisture, for which reason such plants appear rather wet than whitened by the frost... also if the exhalation be excessively hot, the soil will produce only small and pale-coloured plants. Lastly, there are trees whose foliage in spring-time has a bluish or leaden tint, the upper branches more especially being tinged with black or with any other unnatural colour, the trunks cleft in two, and the branches black or discoloured. These phenomena are caused by the intensely hot and dry exhalations which do not spare even the roots, but scorching them, render the trees sickly; wherefore the wind will more frequently uproot trees of this kind than any others. Verily the veins do emit this exhalation... By these signs of Nature a vein can be discovered.'' pp.~37-8. Christopher Bird notes that "The exhalation, so similar to the *ch'i* of the Chinese classics, was early thought to explain the attraction of a dowsing rod in a miner's hands to the metallic vein being sought..." To illustrate the prevalence of the Aristotelian concept of exhalations in medieval alchemy, consider the following passage from Michael Sendivogius' `New Chemical Light:' The metals are produced in this way: after the four elements have projected their power and virtues to the centre of the earth, they are ...distilled and sublimed by the heat of perpetual motion towards the surface of the earth. For the earth is porous, and the air by distillation through the pores of the earth is resolved into a water, out of which all things are generated. You should know that the seed of metals is the same, in the first instance, as the sperm of all other things, viz., a vaporous moisture. Hence it is foolish to seek the dissolution of metals in the first matter, which is nothing but a vapour ...Now I said that all things are produced of a liquid air or a vapour, which the elements distill into the centre of the earth by a continual motion, and that as soon as the Archeus has received it, his wisdom sublimes it through the pores, and distributes it to each place, producing different things according to the diverse places in which it is deposited... The vapour which is sublimed by heat from the centre of the earth, passes either through cold or warm places. If the place be warm and pure, and contain adhering to it a certain fatness of sulphur, the vapour (or Mercury of the Sages) joins itself to its fatness, and sublimes it together with itself. If in the course of its further sublimation this unctuous vapour reaches other places where the earth had already been subtilized, purified, and rendered moist by previous ascending vapours, it fills the pores of this earth, and with it becomes gold. But if this unctuous moisture be carried to impure and cold places, it becomes lead; if the earth be pure and mingled with sulphur, it becomes copper. For the purer the place is, the more beautiful and perfect will the metal be. We must also note that the vapour is constantly ascending, and in its ascent from the earth's centre to its superficies, it purifies the places through which it passes. Hence precious metals are found now where none existed a thousand years ago, for this vapour, by its continual progress, ever subtilizes the crude and impure, and as continually carries away the pure with itself. This is the circulation and reiteration of Nature. All places are being more and more purified: and the purer they become, the nobler are their products. In the winter this unctuous vapour is congealed by the frost. At the return of spring it is set free, and is the *Magnesia* which attracts to itself the kindred Mercury of the air, and gives life to all things through the rays of the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars, thus bringing forth grass, flowers, and the like, for Nature is never idle even during a single moment. This, then, is the only true account of the generation of Metals. The earth is purged by a long distillation, and when the unctuous or fatty vapour approaches, the same are procreated, nor are they ever otherwise begotten... -The Hermetic Museum II, pp.90-1. Sendivogius thus identifies the vapour, which rises continually through the earth's pores by a process of perpetual distillation, as the source of all minerals and metals, and as the Mercury of the Sages. The author of `Le Filet d'Ariadne' indicates that the metals and minerals lose their germinative or regenerative powers when removed from the mine, precisely because they are isolated from the exhalations (which rise from the centre of the Earth through the wombs or veins) that give them life. Thus, metals and minerals were thought to be alive, but only when in contact with the earth. When removed from the mines, they lost their life and generative power. But the alchemists believed that they could be re-animated in the laboratory. Note that the vapour, or exhalation, which rises through the pores of the earth, driven by the internal fire of the earth, is like the breath that *animates* all *animals*, which breath the alchemists (as inherited from the ancient Greek philosophers) equated with spirit. And just as this breath gives life to the animals; so analogously do the minerals receive their life from the exhalations rising through the pores of the earth, and passing through the mines; the fissures, veins, and wombs of the earth. Consider also that, in the process of alchemical sublimation, a vapour (or exhalation) is made to rise and fall, to circulate through the glass matrass, thereby enabling the material to breathe, and giving it life. Describing this process in his `Principles', Philalethes wrote: #14. The whole of this operation---which is like a distillation by the Moon over the Earth---causes matter to rise as mist and to fall back as rain; this is the reason why I counsel you to keep sublimation continually steaming, in order that the Stone may have air and live. The alchemists, given their vitalistic view of nature, believed that all matter contained a pneuma or spirit, which they identified as mercury. Mercury was the spirit of any individual material object---the vapour given off during heating---and it was regarded as the unity underlying all diversity; the first matter. The mercury of the alchemists was therefore not ordinary mercury but *philosopher's mercury*, an ideal substance to which the mercury found in Nature is only an imperfect approximation. The first step of the alchemical Work was putrefaction, in which the characteristics were stripped from the subject, thus reducing it to First Matter. But since `pneuma' was considered to be the organizing principle which gave form to the formless matter, this process released the subject's spirit, or spark of life, in the form of a vapour. In the process of solution, the calcined powder was dissolved in `a mineral water which does not wet the hands'. This `dry water' was mercury which was often obtained by condensing the vapours given off during calcination (identified as philosopher's mercury) into the mercurial liquid. Indeed, some have suggested that condensed air is itself the mysterious substance of the philosophers. A.E. Waite writes: Aristeus, the philosphical alchemist, is supposed to have delivered to his disciples what he terms the golden key of the Grand Work, which will render all metals diaphanous, and man himself immortal. The process appears to consist in the esoteric treatment of air... It is congealed and distilled until it develops a divine sparkle, and subsequently becomes liquefied. It is then subjected to heat, and is reinforced by another atmosphere. After these and other treatments, the elixer or solar marvel of all the sages, should reward the alchemical worker. --The Occult Sciences, pg. 101. In a condensed form, air became the "dry water", of which Pernety wrote: The *Prima Materia* from which all has been made, which serves as a basis for all the composites, seems to have been so mingled and identified in them ...it could not be separated from them without causing their destruction. Nature has left us an example of this confused and formless mass, in that *dry water*, which does not moisten, which may be seen rising from mountains, and which exhale from some lakes, impregnated with the germs of things, and which evaporates at the least heat. This dry water is that which forms the basis of the *Ars Magna*, according to all Philosophers. He who would know how to unite this volatile matter with its male, to extract from it the Elements, and to separate them philosophically, could flatter himself, so says d'Espagnet, *(Enchirid. Phys. restit. can. 49.)*, that he had in his possession the most precious secret of nature, and even the epitome of the essence of the heavens. --The Great Art, pg.75. Returning to Michael Sendivogius and his `New Chemical Light', we find a clue as to how the alchemists might have ``condensed air'' to form their Mercury: The operation thereof is as follows: ---You dissolve condensed air, and in it a tenth part of gold; seal it up, and expose it to our fire, until the air is changed into powder, and there will be seen, given the salt of the world, a great variety of colours... ...Resolve diligently in your mind all that I have said about the way in which the elements distil the Radical Moisture to the centre of the earth, and how the terrestrial and centric sun again raises and sublimes them, by its continual motion, to the surface of the earth. Note also the correspondence which has been affirmed between the celestial and the centric sun; for the celestial Sun and Moon have a special power and a wonderful virtue in distilling upon earth by their rays. For heat is easily united to heat, and salt to salt. As the central sun has its sea and crude perceptible water, so the celestial sun has its sea of subtle and imperceptible water (the atmosphere). On the surface of the earth the two kinds of rays meet and produce flowers and all things. Then rain receives its vital force out of the air, and unites it to that of the saltpetre of the earth. For the saltpetre of the earth is like calcined *Tarter*, and by its dryness, attracts air to itself---which air it dissolves into water. For this saltpetre itself was once air, and has become joined to the fatness of the earth. The more abundantly the rays of the sun descend, the greater is the quantity of saltpetre generated, and so also is the harvest on earth increased... --The Hermetic Museum II, pp. 107-8. Did Sendivogius refer to the ability of saltpetre to draw moisture out of the air? To the medieval alchemists, this effect must have appeared, just as with the formation of dew from the calm, clear, night sky, to be a condensation of the air itself. In the ancient world, dew was considered to be a revivifying agent---it descended from heaven during the night to revivify and sustain the grasses and other plants. It was also no doubt observed early on that nitre (saltpetre) greened the vegetation, stimulated plant growth, etc. Likely there was confusion between potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate, the latter being especially deliquescent. Thus the greening effects of nitre may have been attributed to its apparent ability to condense air, and thus produce the same revivifying effect as dew. And since air was considered as, essentially, the universal spirit, the condensation of air was equivalent to the condesation of the universal spirit---the ultimate aim of alchemy. I welcome any further thoughts or other opinions on this material. -Patrick ([email protected]) Personal Note: Thanks to CRA for the motivation. Fri Jul 12 09:39:42 1996 Subject: 1326 Is alchemy unique? From: John Chas Webb Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:25:52 -1000 George Leake wrote: | *I fail to how the following statement follows everything else in this | message. Because there aren't more enlightened/Alchemist PhDs is no fault | of Jung's. I fail to see how you argue one way or the other about Jung | after that hanging statement of opinion. | >If Jung was totally correct then there would certainly be many | >enlighted/Alchemist Phd.'s. *************************************************************** Your observation is completely correct. The posting was in response to a previous posting which was edited out before it was placed in the forum. However, I will respond to your specific observation. However valuable Jung's contributions to the Psychology of Alchemy are, there is, in my opinion, one major flaw. Typically, it is the "collective flaw" of western thinking which is to proceed in the alchemical work as though "you" are bringing forth the gold of the inner self. It is, actually, the "you" which blocks the natural tendency of the inner gold to express itself through you. Man is the "naming animal" and, in my opinion, Jung certainly proved this by helping "Humpty Dumpty" by giving names to all of his fragmented parts. All of Jung's work takes place within the auspices of the "ego" and its observations of its inner landscape. In Jungian psychology the goal is "individuation", in alchemy the goal is disolution and liberation. Jung trains the ego while pure alchemy disolves it. Jung puts you into the world while alchemy takes you out of it. I offer the following in support of my position and, I agree, that my argument is somewhat extreme but never-the-less accurate from a metaphysical point of view. 1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracated themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit. 2) The "Alchemical" Teachings given to the masses are contained, in symbol and text in the New Testament in the transformation of Jesus (flesh and blood) into the Christ which is a symbol of the victory of light (gold) over density (lead). 3) The Alchemical Teaching of the New Testament is to fix one's attention firmly upon the "Creative Power" and then to allow one's self to flow past the machinations of the contents of one's mind and its underpinnings (which Jung calles the unconscious and subconscious). The key operative for this "operation" is surrender so that gradually the inner light (the gold or spark of God) shines through and creates resurrection or the re- appearance of the eternal soul. (Note: it may be helpful to view this process in a metaphysical/alchemical context and outside of the trappings of contemporary religion). My position is that If Jung were TOTALLY correct then there would be regular appearances of enlightened, self actualized beings who fully utilized his teachings. This is not the case! Jungian teachings rely upon the existence of the "ego" which reappears in "the world" in a somewhat less painful condition (which is the ultimate purpose of psychology). In Alchemy the "ego" dissolves to permit the "alchemical marriage" where all "naming" ceases and the duality of subject/object dis-integrates. A MAJOR OBSTACLE for any "enlightened" psychotherapist is to encourage his or her patient to allow his or her world to collapse and then be reconfigured by "spirit". In Western thinking this is crazy and subjects the therapist to severe legal complications. It is at this point that psychology and metaphysics part company. This is the line that Jung could not cross. Very Best Regards, John Chas Webb [email protected] Fri Jul 12 13:20:58 1996 Subject: 1327 Czech Alchemy - Franz Bardon Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 11:05:02 +0100 From: Danny Torbica Dear Martin / Rawn Many thanks for the posting on Franz Bardon. Have you got any more information on him and in particular the organisation Universalia that you mentioned. please reply to me at [email protected] directly if you would like to engage in further specific exchanges in this area. I look forward to hearing from you. danny Fri Jul 12 13:21:07 1996 Subject: 1328 Alchemy today From: John Chas Webb Subject: Re: 1316 Alchemy today In response to Waldemar Hammel's posting 1316 Alchemy today. Please consider this: As an alchemist the "they" that you observe is a projection of your own inner states. The unified God can most certainly apply to the "unified principle of alchemia", in fact, it is a FUNdamental principle! What you site as a binary division (+/-) is an expression of the principle of duality. To the extent that you perceive duality it is because you contain it. The work of the Alchemist is to begin to experience everything around him or her as a unified whole. The mind, which operates only in the physical realm (it needs "things" in order to function) sorts things into opposites. (The willy-nilly attributes of quicksilver demonstrate this perfectly). We know "hot" because we also know "cold". The mind MUST be transcended in order to see all of the visible paradox as the expression of ONE THING (GOD). This is not the God of traditional religion but the unified God of the Alchemist who experiences all of the pairs of opposites from the comfort of the Philosopher's Stone. Our culture has divided the observable into "good" (God) and "evil" (dEVIL). This is a somewhat nice psychological delusion that provides comfort to be able to blame the "devil" for seeming bad happenings. The challenge for the Alchemist is to extract him or herself from the appearance of duality and thus requires a transformation of the Alchemist's inner states. The Alchemical Teaching contained in Genesis gives us the TOTAL SOLUTION. The answer is "to not know evil"! What this means for the Alchemist is to first begin to remove any negative or evil tendencies from his or her own personality or actions. Secondly, to begin to view EVERYTHING as an expression of good. To the extent that you perceive problems with the world you are actually seeing your own inner landscape and have allowed yourself to become critical of God's perfect creation! The "golden" condition of the acomplished alchemist is to have removed all of the dross from the gold. This describes the process of purifying one's own consciousness. When you finally rest in the "good" (gold) you then will agree with "God" (see Genesis) who created everything and saw that it was GOOD! And who then warned to "not taste of the knowledge of evil" because the knowledge and recognition of evil shows you the "other half" of God that will cause your death. Once it is that you know evil you must then enter the Old Testament (Oh Yuck!). So the ways of the world which you observe are your ways and the way back to wholeness is to purify the gold (to remove the dross of "evil"). The initial delusion to overcome is that the Alchemist must change the world. This is foolishness, the Alchemist changes his or her character and consciousness and then the outer world changes as if by magic! The admonition to "not judge" is a key piece of advice in this phase of The Great Work. Perfectly Yours, John Chas Webb [email protected] Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:38:13 +0100 Subject: 1328a Is alchemy unique? Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 06:09:15 -0700 From: John Williams >>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<< >I offer the following in support of my position and, I agree, that my >argument is somewhat extreme but never-the-less accurate from a >metaphysical point of view. >1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracated >themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit. I would have to disagree. Based on the (internal) Duality principle, thefact that you don't see the alchemists that are here is because of you. Ofan internal polarity sorting on your part of what defines Alchemy. Alchemy is, by your definition and others, the metaphysical unification of all seperate parts. For instance, my interest in Alchemy has been sparked by current "leading-edge" neuro-physics, physical chemistry and quantum mechanics. To quote a favorite (un-accepted Alchemist) author, advance a theory in a very un-Western fashion, and experiment with it. If the theory functions, continue the theory. If not, discontinue. Either way, become involved in your work. Do not polarity seperate, do not dissolve the totality of the experience into meaningless half-truths and "hot" vs. "cold." >>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<< >My position is that If Jung were TOTALLY correct then there would be >regular appearances of enlightened, self actualized beings who fully >utilized his teachings. This is not the case! Jungian teachings rely >upon the existence of the "ego" which reappears in "the world" in a >Somewhat less painful condition (which is the ultimate purpose of >psychology). In Alchemy the "ego" dissolves to permit the "alchemical >marriage" where all"naming" ceases and the duality of subject/object >dis-integrates. A MAJOR OBSTACLE for any "enlightened" psychotherapist >is to encourage his or her patient to allow his or her world to >collapse and then be reconfigured by "spirit". In Western thinking >this is crazy and subjects the therapist to >severe legal complications. It is at this point that psychology and >metaphysics part company. This is the line that Jung could not cross. >>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<< Jung has seen a larger audience of readers and believers in the last four years thanks to some bizarre quirk of nature. His works have been summerized in the entertainment community providing many with a "laymen's" understanding of Jung. However, those dedicated to knowledge (Alchemy?) would certainly take the time to read further into this fascinating author. Suffice it to say, I agree with your interpretation above of Jung. And I would add that the same bizarre quirk of nature, I am not alone in my sudden interest and pursuit of Alchemy. However, I am certainly one step closer to the attainment of the proverbial fruit of knowledge. I am accessing fonts (of knowledge) such as this. Any further comparisons between Alchemy and "modern" Quantum Theory, and similar veins of research would be welcome. "Modern" Quantum Theory doesn't compare to Alchemy (disclaimer) because it does seperate the spirit from the matter. Alchemy perceives the two as a unified element. jackal / john Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:12:01 +0100 Subject: 1329 Is Alchemy Unique? In response to John Williams 'and filling the need to play devil's advocate' let me offer this response to the two points that you made: 1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracted themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit. response: How can you be sure? If we were to separate the Universes into various levels of evolution where the material existence is at the lowest level this may hold true, and we would perceive the next step up in evolution as being the shedding of our corporeal bonds into pure spirit. But ponder this thought: If we truly exist in an infinite Universe and possibly an infinite number of infinite universes existing both in corporeal and spiritual form, what would be the best 'form' to explore these Universes? For as corporeal entities we can experience things that the spirit cannot, and as spiritual entities we can experience things the body cannot, so to fully taste all the fruits the universes have to offer it would seem logical that the best form would be comprised of both. Perhaps there is a delicate balance between spirit and matter, a razors edge, that all beings are subject to throughout their entire existence. To stray too far off of either side of the razor would lead us off into the purely material or purely spiritual and away from the path of the enlightened. I believe that some of the successful alchemists may still be here 'by choice and when needed' but how could they possibly make themselves known to those who are not yet able to comprehend how they exists? For matter cannot consume spirit unless spirit allows itself to be consumed and forced out of balance. (for reference use the example of the legend of Elias Artisia) Perhaps the enlightened are making regular appearances, but only to those who are capable of accepting their teachings. Just something to think about. I believe this covers both major points you raised. Darren M Swanick Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:16:33 +0100 Subject: 1330 Introductory material on Alchemy I am new to this list and am quite new to alchemy in general. I was wondering if someone might have some recommended introductory texts to give me a better background of the subject. I have visited the web site, but what i am looking for now is a good introduction to the field in general. Any help would be greatly appreciated; private replies are preferred to keep the list traffic down. Thanks much, Bob -- Robert A. Luscombe Email: [email protected] 121 Walter Street Pittsburgh, PA 15210 412/488-0941 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:51:24 +0100 Subject: 1331 Adept? From: calhhh Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:55:22 -0400 Dear Forum Members : It is clear now that in our days we are seeing a great surge of interest about the ROYAL ART, and I think that together with its study, it is important to divest alchemy of all the superstitions and misconceptions that for one reason or other have accompanied it through the last centuries ... I know that the basic definition, at least in alchemical terms, of an ADEPT represents an individual who has completed the Great Work, therefore having obtained the LAPIS PHILOSOPHORUM. However many things have been said about the "psychic powers", "longevity", "breaking the cycles of reincarnations", etc. that and adept may obtain when indeed he reaches such a state. Does an Adept, once the STONE is accomplished necessarily know or understand All the laws of Nature ? Upon ingesting The Stone, does he attains automatically some kind of illumination ? In my opinion, walking, enjoying and learning while pursuing the Alchemical Path, as in any other Path towards Light, is in itself a very important part of the Goal, but it is also true that most of us that undertake the rather long and difficult road of Alchemical Works, is searching for the Stone ... Therefore, I would appreciate tremendously to hear from the forum members, what are the expectations of ADEPTHOOD .... Does the Alchemist to become properly and ADEPT must ingest THE STONE .... Does that produces a trascendent change in his physical/subtle bodies ? Looking forward for your comments, remain fraterly yours, ORCIS [email protected] Tue Jul 16 13:25:52 1996 Subject: 1332 Sol, Luna, Earth. From: "John Chas Webb" Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:50:09 -1000 | Reply to Rawn Clark's post #1323 | who wrote (edited): | |Do the 7 planets symbolize a process that occurs during the sequential |separation of the |spirits, essentially enacted upon the cloud of spirits themselves; or do |they refer to the forces which cause the actual separation of the spirit? *************************************************************************** This response has its foundation in esoteric astrology as it applies to alchemy and is based upon the following presumptions/observations: 1) The processes of nature are designed to produce gold out of the substances which co-operate with it. 2) The individual planets DO NOT symbolize a process but EACH planet symbolizes a condition. (for instance Mercury, by itself, is not a process but, rather, a condition) 3) The interaction of the various conditions represented by the individual planets reveal the processes. 4) The "forces" which cause the actual separation is only 1 force with different attributes. This force operates invisibly until the Alchemist includes him/herself as one of the "substances" being operated upon. 5) "God" is the Supreme Alchemist (as well as the Great Geometer) and the processes of "God" are revealed by the movement and interaction of the components of the solar system. (As above-so below). 6) All of the music ever written has its genesis in 7 notes. 7) The assignment of notes to the spheres is an ADDITIONAL WAY to describe the properties and interaction of the spheres in a musical way. An Alchemist can observe the movements of the planets, much like an astronomer, and never begin the "work" of alchemy. In order for the work of alchemy to begin the observer/alchemist MUST place him or herself in relationship to the movements of the planets. The way that this is accomplished is by superimposing the movements of the planets over the placements of the planets at the time of the birth of the neo/alchemist. This way, as an example, when firey Mars transits the Alchemist's Mercury then he or she can record the event along with all of his or her self-observations. The timing of "alchemical experiments" to celestial events reinforces this process. In fact, the experiments of the alchemist attempt to duplicate the processes which are revealed by the movements of the planets. Therefore, it is extremely helpful to have some knowledge of the attributes assigned by the Alchemist to each of the heavenly spheres and their respective metal. Regarding the planetary symbols - a circle indicates spirit, a cross indicates matter, a cresent indicates duality/polarity. So the symbol of Venus, the metal of which is copper (a superior "conductor) is a circle on top of a cross. This indicates that the condition of Venus is where Spirit has mastery over Matter. As Venus represents love and aesthetics, the symbolic message is that love is the "process" which extracts spirit from the trappings of matter. Firey Mars, on the other hand, has an arrow pointing away from the circle of spirit which indicates the condition of activity which is contrary to the natural tendency of spirit (e.g. warfare/conflict). Please also note that the Earth is positioned between Venus and Mars as an indication of the human condition. We can then "travel" to the Sun (gold) via Venus and Mercury OR we can confront Saturn (lead) by following the "direction" of Mars! One path creates density and one path creates liberation. Liberation is the path of the Alchemist, the path of transmuting lead to gold! It is my opinion that you can arrange and rearrange the position of the planets and their corresponding notes, however, it will take on no real meaning whatsoever until you first understand how your planets (and notes) are arranged by investigating your astrological birth chart and then relating it to the current movement of the spheres. B Natural, John Chas Webb [email protected] Tue Jul 16 13:26:01 1996 Subject: 1333 Is alchemy unique? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 14:47 NZST From: Pat Zalewski >From: John Williams >>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<< >>I offer the following in support of my position and, I agree, that my >>argument is somewhat extreme but never-the-less accurate from a >>metaphysical point of view. >>1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracated >>themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit. > >I would have to disagree. Based on the (internal) Duality principle, >thefact that you don't see the alchemists that are here is because of >you. Ofan internal polarity sorting on your part of what defines >Alchemy. Alchemy is, by your definition and others, the metaphysical >unification of all seperate parts. > >For instance, my interest in Alchemy has been sparked by current >"leading-edge" neuro-physics, physical chemistry and quantum mechanics. >To quote a favorite (un-accepted Alchemist) author, advance a theory in >a very un-Western fashion, and experiment with it. If the theory >functions, continue the theory. If not, discontinue. Either way, >become involved in your work. Do not polarity seperate, do not dissolve >the totality of the experience into meaningless half-truths and "hot" >vs. "cold." > >>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<< >>My position is that If Jung were TOTALLY correct then there would be >>regular appearances of enlightened, self actualized beings who fully >>utilized his teachings. This is not the case! Jungian teachings rely >>upon the existence of the "ego" which reappears in "the world" in a >>Somewhat less painful condition (which is the ultimate purpose of >>psychology). In Alchemy the "ego" dissolves to permit the "alchemical >>marriage" where all"naming" ceases and the duality of subject/object >>dis-integrates. A MAJOR OBSTACLE for any "enlightened" psychotherapist >>is to encourage his or her patient to allow his or her world to >>collapse and then be reconfigured by "spirit". In Western thinking >>this is crazy and subjects the therapist to >>severe legal complications. It is at this point that psychology and >>metaphysics part company. This is the line that Jung could not cross. >>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<< > >Jung has seen a larger audience of readers and believers in the last >four years thanks to some bizarre quirk of nature. His works have been >summerized in the entertainment community providing many with a >"laymen's" understanding of Jung. However, those dedicated to knowledge >(Alchemy?) would certainly take the time to read further into this >fascinating author. > >Suffice it to say, I agree with your interpretation above of Jung. And >I would add that the same bizarre quirk of nature, I am not alone in my >sudden interest and pursuit of Alchemy. However, I am certainly one >step closer to the attainment of the proverbial fruit of knowledge. I >am accessing fonts (of knowledge) such as this. > >Any further comparisons between Alchemy and "modern" Quantum Theory, and >similar veins of research would be welcome. "Modern" Quantum Theory >doesn't compare to Alchemy (disclaimer) because it does seperate the >spirit from the matter. Alchemy perceives the two as a unified element. > >jackal / john >-------------------------------------- Please forgive me for leaving in the whole of the above text before replying as I felt it was necessary to catch the implication of the thread. First and foremost I have always though that Quantum Theory and Alchemy go hand in hand. I do not see in Quantum theory a seperateness of matter and spirit. The two are part of an implicate order or spiral. Just recently I was watching a lecture given by Bohm on Television where division did not come into it.I notice you used the `modern' to separate yourself from the old concept. I presume you are talking about the work of Dr. Grof which is about a decade old. Pesonally I prefer Pibram though. Bohm actually called things, as a form to distinguish things, `relatively independent subtotalities'. I am no expert in these matters but I would like some more of Quantum theory and alchemical imagery to be linked more. Tue Jul 16 13:26:09 1996 Subject: 1334 Reviews, Critiques, Opinions From: Marcella Gillick Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:56:40 +0000 Hello Adam & all on the list. I find myself lost in an ocean of information, misinformation, allegory and secrecy. I feel no longer able to discern what is factual/useful. What I would benefit from is some sort of guidance/debate as to which books etc should be taken seriously and which would be considered rubbish by more experienced people, and more importantly, WHY. (For example, has anyone read Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norville? - it tied me up in knots, left me considering everything, yet doubting everything). Still along the same vein, I would also like any opinions on the theory that if you are following someone (i.e. Guru, Master, Teacher), then you are surely on the wrong path, as we are all different and thus all have to find our own individual path. Apologies if this is the wrong forum for my query. Tue Jul 16 13:37:18 1996 Subject: 1335 Is Alchemy Unique? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:04:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: douwe >Darren M Swanick wrote: >Perhaps there is a delicate balance between spirit and matter, a >razors edge, that all beings are subject to throughout their entire >existence. There is a material or physical minimum to which the person should be brought with his whole being, in this minimum he will be able to contain the World which is beyond this one, and all its densities. This body could be called the body of Jesus just as he accomplished the same, or speaking with St. John, 'Not of this world but in this world'. This is a delicate balance, in which the polarity of the body is changed even up to the smallest organ of the body. This balance comes to exist because of a transmutation/transfiguration from inside to the outside trough the help of a selfless and pure radiation which doesn't tolerate any material tendency. >To stray too far off of either side of the razor would >lead us off into the purely material or purely spiritual and away >from the path of the enlightened. Isn't what you call spirit and matter two sides of the same coin?, maybe it is the concentration on the inner side of coin itself which gives the healthy balance, because you are not consciously working with of matter or spirit, it becomes so to say a secondary part to the process. I personally start to think that all which can be divided is matter, and all that cannot be changed in any way is pure spirit. In this way the word spirit is a bit difficult though, because is it the Spirit beyond matter, the spirit in matter, a group-spirit, a ghost?, alcohol, ether,? :-(, (this is the same problem which you find in alchemy with Mercury, and you'll often have to look at the context to find out, which kind of mercury the writer is talking about.) I have made a clear division between the two forms of spirit, the Holy Ghost and the spirit within nature... (which contains many forms)... Even the first contains many forms if it is seen from a certain (lower) perspective but then in a progressive way, as a always-rectifying-towards-the-non-material way. I think one should keep it with these two forms of spirit because otherwise the divisions make it confusing. So I have a small difficulty about what you define as spiritual... (in my own writings I write the Eternal, and Unchangeable things with a capital letter, and all of this world with a small letter at the beginning, because you can have Eternity, and eternety, etc.) > I believe that some of the successful alchemists may still be >here 'by choice and when needed' but how could they possibly make >themselves known to those who are not yet able to comprehend how they >exists? > For matter cannot consume spirit unless spirit allows itself to >be consumed and forced out of balance. In this case spirit wouldn't be spirit any more, it is matter which will be forced out of balance in such a way that chaos starts to exist. The Radiation of the New Order can Polarize this chaos in a different (selfless) way. On this path there are stages of a half material and a half spiritual existence, but they are always accessed apart from each other, they don't allow to be mixed. It feels as if the material part draws you down by the selfish desire for propagation, and the higher part draws you up by the desire and a absolute sense of liberation. Eventually there is a conjunction but not after matter has given up the struggle by its selfish rules. This whole thing is deep, and in a way the core of alchemy, in this case it is good to think of two eagles or lions devouring each other, King devouring his son, saturn devouring a stone, because something Definite will win. Apart from all of this, there is no true full Union with the Eternal Truth while your in matter, for the simple reason that this cannot manifest in matter as it is, hence the carthars died smiling in a profound peace, even though the underwent a violent death, the same holds true with many alchemist and others. A second death is nothing but a laying off of a shell, a fully aware journey towards true Liberation, a rushing foreward towards Eternal Freedom and Liberation. douwe. [email protected] Sapientae apex, desperatio de rebus mundi. Tue Jul 16 17:03:02 1996 Subject: 1336 Reviews, Critiques, Opinions Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:33:25 -0500 From: george leake >From: Marcella Gillick > I find myself lost in an ocean of information, misinformation, allegory and >secrecy. I feel no longer able to discern what is factual/useful. What I >would benefit from is some sort of guidance/debate as to which books etc >should be taken seriously and which would be considered rubbish by >more experienced people, and more importantly, WHY. (For example, has >anyone read Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norville? - it tied me up in knots, left >me considering everything, yet doubting everything). *interesting. First of all, some of this would be de rigeur for veterans. Can you share with us your private email address so not to take up everyone's time? *there are historical facts, scientific truths, both of which are demonstrable (though one can quibble over whether measurement is ever really accurate), and then there are aspects of this study which are more subjective. Which makes assigning authority to the subject a bit difficult. *what have you read about alchemy? I find that Jung's chapter in his book Psychology and Alchemy entitled "Religious Ideas in Alchemy" (princeton edition) a good intro. For another modern perspective, you might look at Frater Albertus' Alchemists Handbook. Both of these are straightforward treatments for the most part of alchemy. > Still along the same vein, I would also like any opinions on the theory >that if you are following someone (i.e. Guru, Master, Teacher), then you are >surely on the wrong path, as we are all different and thus all have to find >our own individual path. *this gets into the realm of subjective truths. Personally, while I believe one needs to take in all information, one still has to decide for oneself. -G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected] Tue Jul 16 17:31:57 1996 Subject: 1337 Reviews, Critiques, Opinions Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:16:45 +0300 From: Ros Bangham > I find myself lost in an ocean of information, misinformation, allegory and >secrecy. I feel no longer able to discern what is factual/useful. What I >would benefit from is some sort of guidance/debate as to which books etc >should be taken seriously and which would be considered rubbish by >more experienced people, and more importantly, WHY. (For example, has >anyone read Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norville? - it tied me up in knots, left >me considering everything, yet doubting everything). > Still along the same vein, I would also like any opinions on the theory >that if you are following someone (i.e. Guru, Master, Teacher), then you are >surely on the wrong path, as we are all different and thus all have to find >our own individual path. From Alchemist's Handbook - Frater Albertus; "Sooner or later, most students experience a desire to find an Adept in order to become his pupil or disciple. But no matter how sincere such a desire is, it is futile for the student to attempt to locate a teacher versed in the Grand Arcanum. "When the pupil is ready, the Master will appear." ... For it takes more than mere study. An honest heart, a clean heart, a true heart, a benevolent and contrite heart accomplishes more than all the book learning can ever do. Yet strangely enough, learning must accompany the virtues just cited. Without a knowledge and an understanding of natural laws and their corresponding spiritual parallels, no one could ever truly be called an Alchemist or a Sage." R Tue Jul 16 17:44:11 1996 Subject: 1338 Is Alchemy Unique? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 17:00 +0100 From: Waldemar Hammel Darren M.Swanick wrote: >In response to John Williams 'and filling the need to play devil's >advocate' let me offer this response to the two points that you >made:....... Three points I would like to ask: 1) What are successful alchemists? Can you proof the existance of "successful alchemists" in living dates, names, and work? 2) What are "the enlightend", how is that proofable? Is to be enlightend a post-death definition given to some alchemists, or is it a "title" which was choosen by themselves? And how can it be demonstrated, that some men and women were "enlightend"? 3) What is that curious idea, that spirit may be a higher level of evolution than matter? Could it perhaps be that spirit (mental activities, neurological life) is only a systemic emanation of matter? Would You seriously argue that the functions of a TV are existing and living independent of the machines hardware? Is it not the same with men? How can you proof, that mental power survives the decline and death of body (matter)? To me the spirit (mental activities of the brain) is only that systemic emanation of my hardware body. That body has got a structure which enables it to think and to have consciousness. So my spirit (mental live) is a quality-emanation of the bodies (quantity)-structure, the information is "hidden" in the structure. And that is a very great miracle, better than the simple (picked up out of the air)-statement, that spirits are independant from bodies. The only negative for that kind of alchemia that you describe: my hypothesis implicates, that spirits (and any kinds of mental activities) will not survive the decline and death of body! By that nothing can be spiritual living that is not really living in the common meaning. For me that is a great secret, and information theory has to say much about that idea. (that principle is called "emergencia" by the new science of synergetics (for reference see Herman Haken: Synergetics), it treats exactly with that problem: how emerges quality out of quantity?)). With my best regards Waldemar Hammel Tue Jul 16 17:45:25 1996 Subject: 1339 Adept? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:42:39 +0100 From: al4302 >I know that the basic definition, at least in alchemical terms, >of an ADEPT represents an individual who has completed the >Great Work, therefore having obtained the LAPIS PHILOSOPHORUM. >However many things have been said about the "psychic powers", >"longevity", "breaking the cycles of reincarnations", etc. that >and adept may obtain when indeed he reaches such a state. >Does an Adept, once the STONE is accomplished necessarily know >or understand All the laws of Nature ? Upon ingesting The Stone, >does he attains automatically some kind of illumination ? As you know I am not an adept by any means but I have the good fortune to be under the instruction on a man who has made the stone. I can pass on to you what I have been told but I cannot give you the proof that I have seen. Most of the things that are said of this opus are true, in fact the truth is stranger that the fiction. The stone is medicine for the one who makes it and this is why it is ingested, it is this that promotes health although to anyone not meant to ingest someone elses stone it may promote death. It can be ingested by the Alchemists student this is on a twice yearly basis. This helps one along with the work but it is not a short cut. You can see this in the works of Crowley who himself had access to someones stone altough he never quite managed it for himself. It is illumination that makes possible the stone, yes all the laws of the universe are understood in a flash but this has to happen before the stone is complete and in order to complete it one must first know how "GNOSIS" What is important to understand is that the work is carried out in both worlds (Matter & Spirit) at the same time but by opposing methods. That is, illumination within leads to the first practical step which leads to further illumination within and so on until the Great Gnosis occurs and you are left with the knowledge of how to complete the work. This is my understanding of what I have been told I hope it is of as much help to you as it has been to me. Have faith and contemplate, and then contemplate again for the vilest lead of my written word may contain the purest gold. Tue Jul 16 17:46:19 1996 Subject: 1340 Is Alchemy Unique? Subject: Re: 1329 Is Alchemy Unique? From: John D. O'Brien > In response to John Williams 'and filling the need to play devil's > advocate' let me offer this response to the two points that you made > (snip....) > Perhaps the enlightened are making regular appearances, but only > to those who are capable of accepting their teachings. > Darren M Swanick Exactly; When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. John D. O'Brien [email protected] Tue Jul 16 17:49:36 1996 Subject: 1341 Adept? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:38:09 -0500 (CDT) From: John D. O'Brien > It is clear now that in our days we are seeing a great surge > of interest about the ROYAL ART, and I think that together with > its study, it is important to divest alchemy of all the > superstitions and misconceptions that for one reason or other > have accompanied it through the last centuries ... >ORCIS > [email protected] I disagree; For exactly the reason that you state in the first part of your sentence above, the arcana of Alchemy needs to remain. John D. O'Brien [email protected] Wed Jul 17 09:31:05 1996 Subject: 1342 Is Alchemy Unique? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:03:58 -0700 From: John Williams >In response to John Williams 'and filling the need to play devil's >advocate' let me offer this response to the two points that you >made: > >1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracted >themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit. Thank you for responding, however, I do not believe that that was *my* point. >response: How can you be sure? If we were to separate the Universes >into various levels of evolution where the material existence is at >the lowest level this may hold true, and we would perceive the next >step up in evolution as being the shedding of our corporeal bonds >into pure spirit. But ponder this thought: If we truly exist in an >infinite Universe and possibly an infinite number of infinite >universes existing both in corporeal and spiritual form, what would >be the best 'form' to explore these Universes? For as corporeal >entities we can experience things that the spirit cannot, and as >spiritual entities we can experience things the body cannot, so to >fully taste all the fruits the universes have to offer it would seem >logical that the best form would be comprised of both. I agree wholeheartedly with you. An Alchemist, by nature, accepts the totality of the experience for whatever it is. Only those bound by the same insight can comprehend. Similar in form to a Quantum Physicist attempt to explain the leading theory to a plumber without a clue about physics. > I believe that some of the successful alchemists may still be >here 'by choice and when needed' but how could they possibly make >themselves known to those who are not yet able to comprehend how they >exists? Again, I agree with you. As far as how could they? Alchemists, as I understand them so far, are very "selfish" people in the eyes of most. They are concerned solely with personal advancement. Through them, other like-minded people (other Alchemists or Apprentices) are advanced because of their own drive for personal advancement. But, to answer your question. If you met a Alchemist, what do you think they would be like? If you don't have an idea of what kind of Alchemist you are looking for, or looking to become, how can you find a mentor? My favorite allagory (sp) being, "If you're trying to fly a plane to Alaska, you must first know where you are before you can get there. From Toronto, Canada, it would be a several hour trip west. But, if you think you are in Toronto, and are actually in Hawaii. You will certainly end up on foreign shores." jackal @ qnis.net aka John Williams Wed Jul 17 09:31:15 1996 Subject: 1343 Adept? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:13:13 -0700 From: John Williams >Therefore, I would appreciate tremendously to hear from the forum >members, what are the expectations of ADEPTHOOD .... > >Does the Alchemist to become properly and ADEPT must ingest >THE STONE .... Does that produces a trascendent change in his >physical/subtle bodies ? Expectations of Adepthood: "Life is a journey, not a goal." Similarly, Adepthood is a Journey, not a goal. Adepthood is the summation of who you are, the zen-like ability to take no action and yet accomplish much, the knowing of when to act, and when acting, act without hestitation or regret. Adepthood is often tied to the philosophers stone, yet it is not the summation of it, if so, the dependancy upon the stone is no different than any chemical dependancy, and just as crippling. Take awway the stone, and enlightenment ceases? Nay, I think not. As far as rumors of physic powers, and such, the Human Potential Movement of the late 60s and 70s proclaimed that such things were possible. In fact, many drug users of the time (including Timothy Leary) were in fact searching solely for enlightenment and insight into the nature of humanity. It is only recently (the last 15 years) that drug use has become the problem of the irresponsible and the downtrodden. (e.g., American Indian Peyote rituals.) The Human Potential Movement sees the activity of the brain as proof of the under-use of the "hardware" we have available to us. Like running an old 8088 game on a Pentium 133 MHz. Not much of a challenge. But imagine if you've never seen a computer, have no reference for better? Would not that 8088 game seem like the wonderful thing it was for an 8088? I believe in the Philosophers Stone, I believe that the effects it has are capable of enlightening you to your potential, or to expand your potential, but it still requires you to do something with it. The Stone is a means, not an end. Disclaimer: That's my opinion. =) jackal Wed Jul 17 09:31:23 1996 Subject: 1344 Introductory material on Alchemy Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:03:16 -0600 (MDT) From: Alan Webber I also am new and would appreciate a copy of any email you might have sent to Bob on introductory material. My email address is : [email protected] Thank you, Alan Wed Jul 17 09:31:31 1996 Subject: 1345 Adept? From: calhhh Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:54:47 -0400 At 06:02 PM 07/16/96 John D. O'Brien wrote in reference to my post: ADEPT ? >> It is clear now that in our days we are seeing a great surge >> of interest about the ROYAL ART, and I think that together with >> its study, it is important to divest alchemy of all the >> superstitions and misconceptions that for one reason or other >> have accompanied it through the last centuries ... >> ORCIS >> [email protected] > I disagree; For exactly the reason that you state in the first part of > your sentence above, the arcana of Alchemy needs to remain. > John D. O'Brien I do not understand quite clearly with what you are disagreeing about, since my post did not refer to the necessity of keeping alchemical knowledge, materials and/or procedures secret (arcana), but it was a simple question to know other members views about what ADEPTHOOD comprises ... To learn a little about what the Moon is composed of, does not show you how to make it, or even less how to get there ... I respect highly anyone's position in favour of, or against, the need for secrecy about the Royal Art, but let us not, with all due respect, become a little paranoic, about it. I also respect very highly the wisdom of the ages, precisely because alchemy teaches us the necessity to view Nature from a Science/Conscience point of reference (head on heaven and feet on earth ...), but no one can deny that also many of the authors, perhaps with the exception of the Adepts at the end of their path, had a lot of misconceptions as many of us, and specially myself, may have. That is precisely what I meant by "divesting alchemy of superstition and misconceptions", since it would never cross my mind to deny the tremendous value and profound meaning of true alchemical knowledge. It is because of the above that I feel this forum is a useful tool, so that we may discuss those matters that without hurting no one, may serve to clarify ideas, or at least to be a meeting of the minds, and hopefully also of the hearts of all Seekers of Truths. Best Regards, ORCIS [email protected] Wed Jul 17 09:31:39 1996 Subject: 1346 Adept? From: John Chas Webb Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:23:39 -1000 Response to Orcis's post#1331 Who wrote (edited): | Does an Adept, once the STONE is accomplished necessarily know | or understand All the laws of Nature ? Upon ingesting The Stone, | does he attains automatically some kind of illumination ? | | Does the Alchemist to become properly and ADEPT must ingest | THE STONE .... Does that produces a trascendent change in his | physical/subtle bodies ? ******************************************************************* The response to your inquiry is both simple and profound. Support for my answer comes from the symbolism of "The Last Supper" as described in the New Testament. (Book Store Ad- "New Testament at Old Testament prices"). "Illumination" has infinite degrees, however, one of the most basic definitions of "illumination" is "to be aware of the soul". In esoteric Christianity the soul is represented by the Christ, which to the Alchemist is "gold". The Christ (soul/gold) in the human condition is found crucified upon a cross which is a symbol of matter. This crucified condition, to the Alchemist, is represented by the gold being concealed in lead. This, in turn, represents, a precious lighter metal contained within the depths of a much denser one. This represents the relationship of spirit to flesh and blood. This part is actually comical ! The symbolism of The Christ consuming the bread and wine (symbols of flesh and blood) is the PERFECT DEPICTION OF THE GREAT WORK !!! It represents how the emerging spirit/soul/gold must devour the flesh and blood to attain liberation. In Alchemical terms this IS the process of "ingesting the stone". Before this work can begin one must find one's soul! So, for the Alchemist to proceed he or she must first locate the soul and in locating the soul he or shee then realizes that the STONE (weight) is what he or she has referred to as "myself"! As the work of ingesting the stone proceeds the "gold" is refined and the "illumination" expands with every "bite". The next MAJOR crossover point is where the Alchemist ceases identifying with "flesh and blood" and begins identifying with the spirit/soul/gold. Some definition of terms is helpful here: Spirit is without form. Soul is the INDIVIDUAL EXPRESSION of spirit as a form. (spirit and form combined) This is represented in the religious symbolism of the Star of David, the Yin Yang symbol and also as an additional interpretation of the Cross as the intersection of opposites. A "form" can be a dense form (lead) or an etheric form (gold). If one is motivated by "beasty" notions then they take on a beasty form. If one is motivated by etheric notions they evolve to an etheric form. This does NOT represent reward or punishment. It represents the Creative Power's willingness to provide you with a form so that you can have your desired experience. The "problem" is when the consciousness "forgets it has a spiritual foundation" and begins to identify itself with its form ! This dilemma is what Alchemy and Metaphysics and Religion are designed to correct. The major obstacle in accomplishing The Great Work is the mind which is represented by Mercury (quicksilver). It takes the "shape" of whatever container (form) it is placed into. So if we have allowed ourselves to become ruled by our form and our mind we MUST reverse this condition. The key is finding the STONE. The Cosmic "slight of hand" involved in this process is that you cannot find the stone by looking for it !!! You find the stone by first finding your soul and in the same instant that you find the SOUL you realize what the STONE is. This process is tantamount to "splitting the ADAM" !!! May the golden light flood your mind and heart, John Charles Webb [email protected] Wed Jul 17 09:31:52 1996 Subject: 1347 Reviews, Critiques, Opinions Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:19:55 -0700 From: John Williams >more experienced people, and more importantly, WHY. (For example, has >anyone read Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norville? - it tied me up in knots, left >me considering everything, yet doubting everything). > Still along the same vein, I would also like any opinions on the theory >that if you are following someone (i.e. Guru, Master, Teacher), then you are >surely on the wrong path, as we are all different and thus all have to find >our own individual path. I'll not claim advancement in the catagory of Alchemy, but for assistance in your beliefs, I believe myself that a good perspective of life is best described as. "Doubt Doubt." Or, more fully; "Be skeptical of what you don't know, then become skeptical of what you do know, then become skeptical of skepticism." On on a similar vein (I'm not giving the author of this quote, if you know it, good for you =). ) "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Learning, and I mean really learning, is a cycle of believing and disbelieving. You believe something until it no longer works, then disbelieve it and believe something else. You cease to learn when you cease to disbelieve things which no longer work. jackal Wed Jul 17 09:32:03 1996 Subject: 1348 Is alchemy unique? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:32:16 -0700 From: John Williams >as I felt it was necessary to catch the implication of the thread. First and >foremost I have always though that Quantum Theory and Alchemy go hand in >hand. I do not see in Quantum theory a seperateness of matter and spirit. >The two are part of an implicate order or spiral. Just recently I was As a matter of perception (mine) I see in most scientists, of any branch, a seperating of the matter and spiritual. However, as stated earlier, I have only recently become involved in linking Alchemy to my interest in Physics, perhaps I shall come to a new perception. =) >watching a lecture given by Bohm on Television where division did not come >into it.I notice you used the `modern' to separate yourself from the old >concept. I presume you are talking about the work of Dr. Grof which is about >a decade old. Pesonally I prefer Pibram though. Bohm actually called things, >as a form to distinguish things, `relatively independent subtotalities'. I >am no expert in these matters but I would like some more of Quantum theory >and alchemical imagery to be linked more. I too would like the link to occur more. I have recently met a fellow who claims to have discovered the philosophers stone. I've seen some of his material (research) based on Quantum Physics, Physical Chemistry, Superconductivity, and other research papers. The possibilities, if what he is saying is correct, is astounding. Right now, however, I am attempting to get more information, something more concrete than my opinion. As far as actual physicists, I'm afraid I don't know any who I prefer, and I'm familiar with neither Grof or Bohm. Got any sites (www.*) that I could visit?? =) thanks. jackal @ qnis.net aka John Williams Wed Jul 17 09:32:12 1996 Subject: 1349 Is Alchemy Unique? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:45:09 -0700 From: John Williams >The only negative for that kind of alchemia that you describe: >my hypothesis implicates, that spirits (and any kinds of mental activities) >will not survive the decline and death of body! True, based on that theory, you cease to exist when your body does. However, following a corrolary to the theory of information systems (or whatever you want to call it), if information is all you are, then you NEVER DIE. Oh, your body ceases to function but: Every part of you that exists now continues to exists, it merely transforms. Your matter (i.e., atoms or quanta) continue in a transformed state. Further, as long as you become part of the world, and invest in it your ideas and beliefs, those who's lives you have touched carry both your memory, and your beliefs forward. At least part of you continues to exist. Perhaps in that rememberance, some kind of spirit still exists. Just a theory. jackal @ qnis.net aka John Williams Wed Jul 17 09:32:22 1996 Subject: 1350 Adept? Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:51:12 -0700 From:John Williams >> its study, it is important to divest alchemy of all the >> superstitions and misconceptions that for one reason or other >> have accompanied it through the last centuries ... >ORCIS >> [email protected] > >I disagree; For exactly the reason that you state in the first part of >your sentence above, the arcana of Alchemy needs to remain. I agree with the second opinion. Alchemy, being the unification of a diverse element (or diverse state) _requires_ the continuation of the superstitions and misconceptions. In time, I believe old superstitions and misconceptions will be replaced by new ones relate to an earlier commentary on relating Alchemy to the location and movement of the planets: If Earth is situated between Venus and Mars (the circle being spirit, the cross being matter, the arrow being divergence), and one path leads to the Sun (Gold) and the other towards Saturn (Lead), in order to change the nature of Earth (bring it closer to the philosophers stone [gold]) one would have to move the Earth through Venus (the Spirit made matter, and the matter made spirit) into the Sun (Gold). On just a grammatical level, that would mean the destruction of the Earth as we know it. Of course, all that matter consumed by the Sun would have a tremendous transformational effect, and all our matter would continue to exist, just in a perhaps "higher" state. Forgive the play on words. =) jackal @ qnis.net aka John Williams |
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