Alchemy Forum 1451-1500

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 1451-1500.
Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive.

Subject: 1451 Mosquito bites
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:15:56 -0400
From: Russ House

>From: Michael Christopher Shaffer
>Try having them drink lemon water. One half lemon in a glass of water
>3 times per day.

This one is quite effective. If you can get the mosquito to drink the lemon
water, they usually become so engorged that they no longer thirst for blood.
;-)

Russ

Subject: 1452 Piaget on The Work/Dualism
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:14:21 +0100
From: al4302

It is refreshing to see such a line of inquiry. I think most would
agree that spirit and matter can be seperated as the former precipitates
from the latter but we should not forget that for the alchemist it is
the re-union and reversal that is "ART" that is to say "make fixed
what is volitile and make volitile the fixed. There is no reason why this
should not be wholey dualistic reaching into the world of atoms and the
great sea, and where phychology may pertain to only the one intangable world.

Subject: 1453 Isaac Newton
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 96 23:08 BST-1
From: Graham Nickells

I saw a small article in the London Times this week about the sale of
some important essays by Newton on alchemy to the USA from Oxford.
Apparently little scholastic research had been done on the papers.

Anyone know more about it? Unfortunately in lapse, I threw the paper away.

On a totally unrelated topic, thanks for the John Dee forum info.
Does anyone know of any forums on Renaissance astrology, covering William
Lilly, the earlier Arabic astrologers, and others such as Firmicus and
Bonatus?

Thanks,

Graham Nickells

Subject: 1454 Universalia web pages
From: Libor Koudela
Subject: Universalia web pages

I'd like to inform you that we have opened the web pages of
Universalia, the association of Czech hermeticists
(http://www.terminal.cz/~universalia). I am afraid I'm a little bit late
because it's been mentioned by Irena Stepanova already and there is a
link to Universalia among other links to related sites on Adam's web site.
Anyway, the Universalia web pages contain the basic information about
Universalia including a short history of the association and profiles of its
founders. The pages exist in both Czech and English version. The Czech
version contains in addition, archives of Universalia, selected lectures
and articles. Some of them should be translated into English in the
future. We are planning also to create a small gallery of hermetic images
and some other stuff.
Email me please if you have any comments or suggestions.

Libor Koudela, Prague
[email protected]
or
[email protected]

Subject: 1455 Some comments
From: Mr Shaun de Waal
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 12:16:11 +0200 (SAST)

There has not been any response to my posting on alchemy under the
above heading, but I just wanted to say that if anyone wants to be
kept posted on how the experiment is going: now in its 5th day, you
should let me know, as there will be no posting of results to the
general group, since there does not appear to be much interest.

best wishes

Shaun de Waal

Subject: 1456 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 06:22:23 -0700
From: Dennis William Hauck

> Maybe I'm an "old-time-lover" - but most of these compilations seems to lose
> both the original symbolism of Tarot, and the symbolism of Alchemy.
> (Maybe this is not the case...)
>
> Recent times (the past 100 years) launched a lot of Tarot derivates, which
> are just "somehow similar to Tarot", but make a total mix of ideas and symbols.
> Then the original Tarot, used to encryption (for example Sefer Jecira), etc.
> gets spoiled and lost by these... With new and new Tarot decks comes the
> danger of losing the only true original one and the traditions bound to it...
> Correct me, if I'm wrong...
>
> Semi.

I tend to agree with you regarding the loss of tradional meaning in new
age interpretations of Tarot symbolism. On the other hand, if these are
truly archetypal images and symbols we are dealing with, then a modern
reinterpretation of symbols would be an important contribution. I have
yet to see a UFO Tarot, but I think I might be interested in looking at
it. I automatically purchase anything with the name "alchemy" associated
with it, and I was not dissappointed with the Guiley deck, even though
she is known as a paranormal researcher and New Age writer.

Subject: 1457 Mosquito bites
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:16:49 +0000
From: Elliot Diamond

There are several ways to address the mosquito problem. I will list several
ways stemming from various traditions. Let me know if any of these work.

1. Oriental Healing Arts: A person has a greater response to the mosquito bite
according to "pernicious elements". Chinese etiology states that the reaction
is when wind heat and humidity attack the superficial layers of the body and
provoke inflammation. Also, heat is generated inside the body and "attacks the
blood and provokes inflammation of the skin".

Treatment: acupressure to LI-11 point (rub the elbow area vigoriously for
several minutes. One could also read up on magnet therapy.

Chinese medicine prescribes a bowl of mung bean soup with a little sugar stirred in to reduce one's internal heat.

2. Homeopathic: arnica gel or "Sting-out" will reduce the symptoms.
Apis homeopathic tablets.
Perhaps Sulphur or Mercury homeopathic tablets.

3. In Mexico the Brujo's eat one mosquito to keep the rest away.

4. Crystals: Sit in a double Star of David crystal matrix for ten minutes a
day.

5. A consideration of one's diet and what is being metabolised thru the skin.

The above are only thoughts for pondering and are not in any way being
recommended.

Take care.

Subject: 1458 Dee and Kelly transmuting powder
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:26:52 -0500 (EST)
From: OISPEGGY

>In particular, so much nonsense has been written about Kelly, and he is
>such an easy target, that separating the facts from the fiction is probably
>a job which can only be accomplished by an alchemist.

I always see his name spelled Kelley. Why are you using Kelly?

Regards,

- Peggy -
[email protected]

Subject: 1459 Mosquito bites
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:45:27 -0500 (EST)
From: OISPEGGY

>From: alyssa

>Try Deep Woods "OFF" to keep bugs away.

Gack!

>For bites--baking soda and water or try bleach

Bleach? No offense but you must be crazy. Hydrocortisone is
available without a prescription. Obviously be careful not
to get it in the eyes. Ice helps too.

There have been a few deaths in the USA due to reactions to
the active ingredient in most bug sprays. (Sorry, forget what
it is.) At least one of those dead was a healthy, adult male.
If you must use the stuff, be careful not to inhale and do not
reapply.

Needless to say, I'd never use bugspray on a child. I read
somewhere that children exposed to pesticides (via lawn service
or frequent house bug-bombs) are more prone to leukemia too.

I rely on prevention, keeping the child out of mosquito-infested
areas, long pants at night gatherings. Plus citronella candles and
avon "skin-so-soft" lotion (which rumour-has-it deters bugs). I
don't use bugsprays or pesticides at all, figuring that they are
more damaging than the bugs. (OK, I admit to a few anttraps under
appliances, but that doesn't travel the way sprays travel.)

My point is, think twice before spraying the kid, cat, dog or yourself.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Regards,

- Peggy -
[email protected]

Subject: 1460 Franciscans & alchemy
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 9:14:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: WTHEISEN

Jon:

I wrote a brief article about the attitude of the catholic church
The American Benedictine Review, Sept. 1995. The general
chapters of the Franciscan order banned alchemy in 1260 and
the Domincan general chapter did the same in 1273. I have a
few notes about canon law and alchemy in the article also.

Subject: 1461 Mosquito bites
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 07:20 PDT
From: Diane Munoz

Douwe regarding mosquito bites:

>Further: the fact that they get stronger reactions to the bites has to do
>with the female hormone...

How do you come to THAT??? conclusion? In my family the males are the ones
that get the swollen and infected bites. The mosquitos just sneeze at me...

Diane ~ [email protected] or [email protected]

Subject: 1462 Ayurvedic Alchemy
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 11:32:00 -0400
From: Gilbert Arnold

I have some practical experience with Ayurvedic Alchemy that I would
discuss privately if I judge that something of value could be contributed.

Just a quick note on the Tantric practices;

Make sure that your partner also practices; get some proper training from a
knowledgeable person; it is not only a question of retaining semen.

A strong man who practices with a woman who does not practice may
drain her; to much uncirculated chi can lead to delusions, a little bit like
what happens in western alchemy if you talk about to much and never do
any lab work.

Blessings,

Gilbert
[email protected]

Subject: 1463 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:50:52 -0500
From: Christopher L. Chiappari

Just as a bit of info to pass along, has anyone seen the "Postmodern Tarot"
deck? I have seen the box but not the actual cards; it seems that the
images are of contemporary objects, the only one of which I remember is a
pistol.

Chris
[email protected]

Subject: 1464 Dee and Kelly transmuting powder
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:05:09 -0700
From: Clay Holden

Peggy wrote (re: Edward Kelly):

>I always see his name spelled Kelley. Why are you using Kelly?

Dee spelled it both ways in his diaries, most frequently "Kelly". Either
one is acceptable, but the majority of sources have used this one as the
standard spelling.

The first time he is referred to as "Kelly" rather than "Talbot" was
November 15, 1582. At least once thereafter, Dee absent-mindedly wrote
"E.T." instead of "E.K." in manuscript, and had to overstrike himself to
change the "T" to a "K".

Hope this helps.

Best,

Clay
Clay Holden

Subject: 1465 Some comments
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:14:13 -0800
From: jcomeaux

Shaun,

Am certainly interested in any input from anyone on the list. I believe
the submatter you are referring to is called orbitally rearranged monoatomic
elements (O.R.M.E.) by the new physicist. It is described as a white substance
similar to semen. You can find out more by subscribing to [email protected] as a
zeropointer.

My beliefs - I view this system as one in which the spirit or soul seeks value
fulfillment. Thought is incipient matter , electromagnetic energy that streams
out of the physical system to the nonphsysical where it is interpeted as a
mental request of sorts. Emotional intensity speeds up the process. Fear based
and loved base emotions being equal. The point of your personal power is in the
now, the present moment not in the past or the future.

[email protected]

Subject: 1466 Monatomics & Kundalini
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:14:51 +0000
From: Barry Carter

Dear Friends,

I am forwarding three messages which were posted on the WhiteGold
forum from a gentleman who claims to have awakened kundalini. He
seems to have a fairly complete understanding of the process and its
relationship to the Hudson brand of alchemy. Perhaps there is
material of value to others here.

Barry Carter
[email protected]
----------------------------------------------

I have decided not to post these three rather long pieces (31K in total) which originally appeared on the WhiteGold (Hudson) forum. As there is a specialised forum now on the Dave Hudson material, I do not believe that the alchemy forum is the place to pursue the monatomics/ORME/White Gold/Hudson material. If these postings had been of a general nature on Kundalini it would have been acceptable to post them onto the alchemy forum, however, there is so much technical monatomic nomenclature in these pieces that is impenetrable to anyone not thoroughly informed and committed to the Dave Hudson material.

Anyone who wants to study this material further can subscribe to the White Gold forum by sending an E-mail to [email protected] There is an archive where this material can be accessed. Barry Carter might also be willing to pass these messages on to you should you contact him directly.

Adam McLean

Subject: 1467 Ayurvedic Alchemy, Rasayana, etc.
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:42:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steve Feite

Ayin:

>Would it then be safe to say that alchemy began as an Aryan (by Aryan, I do
>not mean Hitler's super-race and all that, but rather the 'ethnic' group
>which originated in Northern India, and moved westwards later on in
>successive waves (the Celts, the Goths and others) idea or concept?

Most would say that Tantric Alchemy originated with the Dravidian people
not the Aryan tribes. There has even been some speculation that Sri Lanka
is a possible source since before the last Ice Age the ocean was 350 feet
shallower and what is now an island was then part of the mainland. I
think it could, however, just as easily be argued that the same thing was
extant in Northern India. Whether this influence came *from* the "Aryan
invasion", I do not know. The "Aryans" actually came from the Russian
steppes I believe--north of India, not northern India as you state.

> Secondly, since the article mentioned and specifically deals with
> plants (organic substances), and alchemy the western tradition talks
> mostly of inorganic materials, mercury, sulphur, salt, etc., could we
> then hypothesize that alchemy is a uniting of organic with inorganic
> substances, fusing into a... well, we're not quite sure what?

In the purification of Mercury, sulphur and most other minerals, many
herbs and roots, salts, etc. are used to achieve purification,
solidification or some other state. I don't know that I would call it
"fusing" but perhaps maturing, nurturance, death/fainting and rebirth
would suffice. The analogy of the Phoenix is certainly appropriate as is
the blending later with X-tian resurrection symbolism and of course the
3rd degree of Blue Lodge masonry. Since substances like Mercury are
considered to become living substances after their transmutation I
believe you have the right idea though in saying "uniting of organic
[living] with inorganic [non-living] substances." Certainly Makaradwaja,
the infamous Tantric alchemical medicine, is made from Mercury and
Sulphur, many different herbs and camphor, catalyzed by Gold and later
coated with gold leaf. Yet despite its incineration repeatedly it is very
much living.

Steve

Subject: 1468 Mosquito bites
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:42:40 -0400
From: Jfruther

Thanks to all the people who kindly gave me interesting and sometimes funny
information upon the matter of mosquito bites. I say a general thank you to
prevent me from posting everybody individually.

The best idea was to let the mosquitos drink lemonjuice. Since this, we have
bright yellow mosquitos, who one can smell ten miles against the wind when
they start attacking. :-))

J.R.

Subject: 1469 Mosquito bites
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:18:46 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe

>From: Diane Munoz
>
>Douwe regarding mosquito bites:
>
>>Further: the fact that they get stronger reactions to the bites has to do
>>with the female hormone...
>
>How do you come to THAT??? conclusion? In my family the males are the ones
>that get the swollen and infected bites. The mosquitos just sneeze at me...

My former girlfriend used to be victimised all the time around summer which
was annoying her because she used to have a strong allergic reaction to it.
For this reason she went to the doctor who told her this.
I have heard the same thing from some other women. Plus it remains a fact
that I never get bitten if there is a girl sleeping in the same room as me.

But hey... be glad anyway...

douwe...
[email protected]
Sapientae apex, desperatio de rebus mundi.

Subject: 1470 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:24:31 -0500
From: george leake

>From: Dennis William Hauck
>I tend to agree with you regarding the loss of tradtional meaning in new
>age interpretations of Tarot symbolism. On the other hand, if these are
>truly archetypal images and symbols we are dealing with, then a modern
>reinterpretation of symbols would be an important contribution. I have
>yet to see a UFO Tarot, but I think I might be interested in looking at
>it. I automatically purchase anything with the name "alchemy" associated
>with it, and I was not dissappointed with the Guiley deck, even though
>she is known as a paranormal researcher and New Age writer.

*Dennis--perhaps this discussion would be better off the forum. Frankly,
though, almost all meanings nowadays associated with tarot are modern
reinterpretations (to use a generous phrase) so unless its particularly
insipid, there's not really much difference on that level between
contemporary assignations and slightly older ones.
*anyhow, please write me privately--and perhaps use your email address in
yr signature line?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Subject: 1471 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:27:56 -0500
From: george leake

>From: Christopher L. Chiappari
>Just as a bit of info to pass along, has anyone seen the "Postmodern Tarot"
>deck?

*I'd prefer to discuss this off the forum, being quite tangential to the
subject of alchemy, some might even say to Tarot itself. One brief word
about this deck: quite disappointing. Nothing Postmodern about it. Perhaps
the Bad Pun or Inside Joke Tarot might be more like it.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Subject: 1472 Ayurvedic Alchemy
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:55:00 -0500
From: A'yin Da'ath

>Make sure that your partner also practices; get some proper training from a
>knowledgeable person; it is not only a question of retaining semen.

Fully agreed- in everything there is far more than what you see and hear.

>A strong man who practices with a woman who does not practice may
>drain her; to much uncirculated chi can lead to delusions, a little bit like
>what happens in western alchemy if you talk about to much and never do
>any lab work.

I read about something similar on a tantric web site (the Church of Tantra,
I believe). The called it psychic vampirism, as a man (or woman) who knows
how to store energies drains someone who has no knowledge thereof.
Curiously, it sounds rather like the entire Vampire legend, you know,
although how they got the vampire to become born-again-dead seems a bit of a
mystery to me :)

[email protected]

Subject: 1473 Mosquito bites
From: John Chas Webb
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:59:02 -1000

>Douwe regarding solutions for bites:

(edited) it remains a fact
| that I never get bitten if there is a girl sleeping in the same room as
me.
*************************************************************************
I seem, somehow, to ALWAYS get bitten when there is a girl sleeping in the
same room with me.
However, mosquitos have never been the problem. If there is a door or
window open which allows them to enter the room I just open another door or
window to let them fly out. :)

------------------------------------------

This thread has now degenerated into some rather puerile jokes. There was actually a rather serious question posed by the originator of this thread. I think we have now had enough fun with it. Let this posting be the end of it.

Adam McLean

Mon Jul 29 22:31:04 1996
Subject: 1474 Alchemical coins ?

In response to Joel Tetard's message 1366:

There is an excellent article by Victor Karpenko 'Coins and Medals made of Alchemical Metal' in the journal Ambix Vol. 35, Part 2, July 1988, p66-76.

Karpenko lists some collections of alchemical coins, and includes a substantial bibliography which will assist anyone wanting to follow this up further.

Adam McLean

Subject: 1475 Ayurvedic Alchemy, Rasayana, etc.
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:57:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charla J. Williams

> From: Steve Feite
> Secondly, this science, existing for so long, appears to have woven
> itself into the very fabric of ancient Indian society. Actually to say it
> has one source would be a misstatement. It appears in Ayurveda, yes. But
> it also comes from Siddha medicine. It also appears in Jyotish (Skt.:the
> Science of Light or Hindu Astrology).

Can you give some examples of how Indian Alchemy appears in
Hindu Astrology?

Thank you, Charla
[email protected]

Subject: 1476 Arcanum Experiment
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 11:31:28 -0600
From: Patrick J. Smith

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Dennis William Hauck wrote:
>
> I have translated the work of the eighteenth century German alchemist,
> Dr. Gottlieb Latz, and am fascinated by his innovative lifelong work
> with the Emerald Tablet, in particular, his deciphering of a chemical
> formula from early Latin versions. He posits that the seven chemicals
> described in the Tablet are components of the Arcanum Experiment, the
> single laboratory experiment which openly demonstrates all the
> principles of alchemy. In particular, he references two compounds
> called "Pulvis Solaris" and "Liquor Hepatis." Is anyone familiar with
> these terms and know their formula? From my progress so far in the
> translation, it seems that the Pulvis contains "sulfur auratum" and red
> mercuric oxide. The Liquor seems to be composed of hydrogen sulfide and
> ammonia. However, I think there may be other ingredients or impurites
> involved in the original formula that are not available today. Anyone
> have any ideas?

I've read your translation "The Secret of the Emerald Tablet" taken
from a book written by Latz. It came highly recommended by
J.D. Holmes. I have to confess up front that I don't have a good
answer for the question as you've posed it, but since no one else has
ventured a comment...

The problem as I see it is that Latz takes an apparently unique
approach to interpreting the Emerald Tablet. His formulation bears
little resemblance to anything else I've read dealing with
alchemy---particularly early alchemy, which is what he claims to be
untangling. Worse, he provides very little justification for his
underlying premises.

First of all, in much of your translation, Latz attempts to interpret
three different versions of the Tablet, which he assigns to three
different periods of ancient Alexandria. His assignments are
apparently based only on matching content with ideas prevalent in
Alexandria during those periods. He assumes that the Tablet was of
central importance in ancient Alexandria, and that the different
schools of thought clashed over its interpretation, each insisting on
an interpretation which was consistent with their own personal biases.
But more recent scholarly attempts at tracing the origin of the
Emerald Tablet, along with the known history of Alexandria, bear none
of this out.

Next, Latz makes the following claim:

"The Emerald Tablet is written on
many different levels. One of these hidden levels presents a complete
description of the chemistry of the Arcanum, the single substance that
could produce all the miracles promised by the alchemists. This
single Arcanum was made with four chemical compounds: Vitriol, Natron,
Pulvis Solaris, and Liquor Hepatis."

But he gives no substantiation for this, no reasons why he thinks
this, and I think that, from an informational point of view, he's
derived more from the text of the Tablet than was there. My guess is
that Latz reached this conclusion by reading a host of other books on
alchemy, making some guesses of his own, and then matching those
substances up with passages in the Tablet. When he speaks of a Red
and a Black Pulvis Solaris, my suspicion is that he's taken alchemical
descriptions of a Red Stone (or Sulphur) and a Black Stone and tried
to interpret them as chemicals. But then he has implicitly assumed
that the alchemists Red Sulphur *is* reducible to simple chemistry.
What if, in the case of Red Sulphur, the alchemists hoped to extract
the *form* of gold? Then what? At any rate, any answer to your
question as it is posed would likely be a wild guess with some very
suspect implied assumptions.

I don't mean to imply that Latz' work, or your translation, is
useless. On the contrary, I found the material presented on old
chemistry quite interesting---a more complete knowledge of that
material would no doubt resolve a lot of seemingly undecipherable
texts. But if I've learned anything from my participation in this
forum, it's that if you place the same set of ambiguous documents in
front of 200 different people, you're likely to get 200 different
interpretations. And the Tablet is ambiguous.

A lot of different influences combined to make alchemy what it is, or
was: Greek Philosophy, Christianity, Egyptian Magic, etc., etc. Over
the centuries, this mix has been overlayed by innumerable
misinterpretations and coloured by a thousand different personal
biases and religious beliefs, and this same tendency has been
demonstrated painfully clearly right here on this forum. Latz opted
for a purely chemical interpretation. Others would say that he missed
the point completely. Still others would say that he saw only one
aspect of a larger puzzle. Still other others would say that alchemy
is what you make of it---in which case it can have little intrinsic
meaning or value. Personally, I think the only hope is to trace the
underlying ideas; to find those fundamental ideas that have
re-appeared over and over again since the time of the ancient Greek
philosophers.

The situation in alchemy today reminds me of another big mess I
somehow got interested in: namely, UFOs. This quagmire of claims,
sightings, and so forth, leaves enough room for almost any
conclusion---and there is an enormous range of interpretations that
begins, perhaps, with luminous swamp gas and progresses (or regresses)
to alien abductions, probings, revelations, communications, cult-like
groups, and so on, ad infinitum. And, of course, there are the
psychological interpretations. Clearly, the state of mind of the
observers does play a decisive role in this area. And temporal lobe
epilepsy has probably contributed as much to the abduction craze as it
has to a number of religious traditions. But do we need to take all
these aspects into consideration, or is there a core phenomenon of
significance with a lot of overlaid nonsense? In light of all this,
it strikes me as significant that Jung took an interest in both
alchemy and UFOs. Had I not joined this forum, I might never have
understood why.

-Patrick

Subject: 1477 Franciscans & alchemy
From: Jon Marshall
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:38:23 -0700

> From: WTHEISEN
>
> I wrote a brief article about the attitude of the catholic church
> The American Benedictine Review, Sept. 1995. The general
> chapters of the Franciscan order banned alchemy in 1260 and
> the Domincan general chapter did the same in 1273. I have a
> few notes about canon law and alchemy in the article also.

Hi, sorry to fill in space, but could you inform me, or the list, of the pages
etc, as my university library does not stock this journal, and I'll have to ask
them to copy it via interlibrary loan and they demand page numbers...

jon

[email protected]

Subject: 1478 Edward Kelly's writings
From: Jon Marshall
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:17:18 -0700

I agree that Kelly has been badly done by by his biographers. As I have said
before Kelly's denunciation of the officers of the church before the papal
nuncio does not telegraph a particularly devious personality.

The treatise on the Philosophers stone is also one of the clearest accounts of
alchemical theory I have come across and makes few claims for its author.

But is there any independent evidence that Kelly actually wrote this work, or
the other the Latin tracts attributed to him? I will trust Ashmole for the
English poetry, but the habit of attributing alchemical texts to famous
alchemists must not be forgotten.

Ferguson gives 1670 as the earliest date for the Tractat in

Drey vortreffliche und noch nie im Druck gewsene Chymische Bucher
Hamburg, Johan Nauman

and the

Tractatus duo egregii de Lapide Philosophorum una cum Theatro Astronomiae
Terrestri
edited by J.L.M.C. (which I remember is *not* as Waite or someone suggests John
Lily and Meric Casaubon- what a combination!- but I forget whom) from Hamburg
and printed in Amsterdam 1676

The Via humida seems to date from even later, appearing in the
Deutches Theatrum Chemicum in 1732!

thus it might be significant that Ashmole might not have known of this
manuscript.

Given that Kelly seems to have been still alive after 1595 when Dee heard that
he was dead (Evans, RJ. *Rudolph II and his world* OUP 1973 pp227-8) and
Fergusson quotes Maier refering to Kelly's "miserable end" (from Symbola aura
mensae p481), I wonder if anyone knows if Maier says anything more explicit
anywhere?

jon

Tue Jul 30 09:56:49 1996
Subject: 1479 Edward Kelly's writings

Following up on Jon Marshall's post about Kelly's alchemical writings, I list below the printed book sources for Kelly's works, together with some manuscript sources. [I have not included the many manuscript items in the British Library and the Ashmole collection in Oxford.]

Adam McLean

Printed book material.

Ludwig Hermann COMBACH. Tractatus aliquot chemici singulares summum philosophorum archanum continentes. 1. Liber de principiis natur�, et artis chemic�, incerti authoris. 2. Johannis Belye Angli tractatulus novus, et alius Bernhardi Comitis Trevirensis, ex gallico versus. Cum fragmentis Eduardi Kell�i, H. Aquil� Thuringi, et Joh. Isaaci Hollandi. 3. Fratis Ferrarii tractatus integer, hactenus fere suppressus, et in principio et fine plus quam dimidia parte mutilatus. 4. Johannis Daustenii Angli Rosarium. Opuscula partim nondum in lucem producta, partinm � mendis... vindicata, et integritati restituta. [Editot] L[udovicus] C[ombachius]. Geismari�: typis Salomonis Schadewitz sumptibus S. K�hlers. 1647.

Joannes BELYE. Tractatus duo chemici singulares et breves quorum prior est Johannis Belye, alter Bernhardi Comitis Trevirensis. His appendicis loco adduntur... Gesmari�: typis Salomonis Schadewitz, sumptibus Sebaldi K�hlers. 1647.
Item 2. Excerpta qu�dam ex epistolis Eduardi Kell�i Angli.

Gin�ceum chimicum; seu, congeries plurium anthorum qui in artem hermeticam de lapide philosophico scriptserunt, quorum tractatus nec in Theatro, aut alio volumine usque adhuc simul impressi fuerunt... Volumen primum. Lugduni: Jean de Trevis. 1679.
Item 12. Ex Epistola Eduardi Kellaei.

JOHANN von Tetzen. Drey vortreffliche und noch nie im Druck gewesene chymische B�cher. als I. Johannes Ticinensis eines B�hmischen Priesters opusculum, genandt Processus de Lapide Philosophorum. II. Anthonii de Abbatia eines erfahren M�nches in der Kunst, aussgef�rtiges Send-Schreiben. III. Des weltber�hmten Engell�nders Edoardi Kell�i aussf�hrlicher Tractat dem K�yser Rudolpho zugeschrieben. Allen der Geheimen und Hohen Kunst Liebhabern zu nutz und mercklichem Unterricht in Teutscher Sprach �bergesetzet, herauss gegeben, durch Einen der neimals gnug gepriesenen Wissenschafft sonderbahren Beforderer. Mit einer Warnungs- Vorrede wieder die Sophisten und Betrieger. Hamburg: Johann Naumann. 1670.

JOHANN von Tetzen. Johannis Ticinensis, eines B�hmischen Priesters, Anthonii de Abbatia, eines in der Kunst erfahrnen M�nchs, und Edoardi Kell�i eines Welt- behr�hmten Engel�nders vortreffiche und aussf�hrliche Chymische B�cher, Allen der Geheimen und Hohen Kunst-Liebhabern zu Nutz and mercklichem Unterricht in teutscher Sprach �bergesetzet, und herauss gegeben durch einen, der niemals gnug gepriesenen Wissenschafft, sonderbahren Beforderer. Mit einer Warnungs-Vorrede wider die Sophisten und Betrieger. Hamburg: Johann Gottfried Liebezeit. 1691.
Item 5. E. Kell�us, Tractat an Rudolphum.

T�da Trifida Chimica, Das ist: Dreyfache Chimische Fackel, Den wahren Weg zu der edlen Chimi-Kunst bescheinend, nemlich Johannis Wolffgangi Dienheimii, Medicina Universalis, Anonymi, Verbum dismissum, D. Hugini � Barma, Saturnia Regna. Allesamt treulich verteutscht, und an das Tagliecht gebracht. Boni Medici est, non saltem ea, quae ante pedes sunt videre, sed et ea, quae sunt Superius et Inferius, studiose considerare. N�rnberg: in Verlegung Johan Andre� und Wolffgang Endters dess J�ngern Sel. Erben. 1674.
Item 7. Aus einem Schreiben Eduardi Kell�i.
Item 8. Aus einer Epistel Eduardi Kell�i.

Manuscript material.

Vienna, �sterreichen Nationalbibliothek MS. 11526 [Rec. 327.] [18th Century.]
Item 3. f254-277 [Alchemical operations "traductae in hanc breuitatem per E. K." [Edward Kelly], beginning "Lapis de Mercurio Solis et Lunae..."]

Vienna, �sterreichen Nationalbibliothek MS. 11323c [Rec 1786. 9.]
Item 2. f9 Alchemical process of Edward Kelley.

Copenhagen, Kongelige Bibliotek MS. 246.
Item 4. Carmen Edvardi Kelle militis [In English. Edward Kelly.]

Copenhagen, Kongelige Bibliotek MS. 246.
Item 2. Elixir du Mr. Violet [in Latin, from papers of Sr Edward Kelly, 1599.]
Item 3. De scientia occulta [In Italian, from papers of Sir Edward Kelly.]

London, Wellcome Institute MS. 577. [Early 17th Century.]
Item 2. ff14v-22 Kent. [Letter on alchemy in English 'to his frind and Sonne M. William Johnson Dr. of Physick in the Lowe countries... July 14 1596'. This includes a copy of a letter from Edward Kelley.

Edinburgh, Royal Coll. of Physicians. MS. AB4/18. [Early decades of 17th century.]
p517-518 'Sir Edward Kelley Knight on the Philosophers Stone written to his especial good frende G.S. Gent.'
[verse in English.]

Dresden MS. N. 36. [18th Century.]
Title] : Figurae hieroglyph. de lap. phil.
"Duo in hoc codice extant manuscripti Primus defectuosus non casu, sed industria, materiam occultandi ergo, Edoardi Kaellei [Kelley] Angli est, qui sub Rudolpho II Romanorum Imperatore carcere detentus, coram Petro Vincio Medico Olmucensi, Crollio, et Domino de Rosenberg longo congressus materiam aperire coactus fuit. Alter Davidis Paiter [Beuther] Philosophi per ignem et aquam Electoris Saxoniae Victima per Hyerogliphica explicatur: ambo rarissimi, ac philosophis tantum digni codices, quatuor Elementorum doctrinam iuxta antiquorum placita in Ternario demonstrantes..."
[Contemporary note on f1, underneath a seal and by another hand "Franceso de Guilianis Primero Interprete di. s. M. del Re di Pologna all Corte Ottomana."]
[With carefully executed painted illustrations.]
Item 1. Theatrum astronomiae terrestris.

Glasgow University Library MS. Ferguson 236. [17th Century.]
Item 7. f38 Eduardus Kelleus ita fecit.

Subject: 1480 Positively the last on Mosquitos!!!
From: Barry Carter
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 11:22:06 +0000

Dear Friends,

One of my other involvements at the current time is in an effort to
get our local vector control district to quit the blanket spraying of
malathion on our community. As a result of this persuit I subscribed
to a couple of mosquito control forums. Most of the opinions
expressed on these forums tend to support chemical rather than herbal
or alchemical mosquito control. I am forwarding a few of the more
salient recent posts to this forum.

By the way, my mother swears that having plenty of B vitamins in her
system keeps the mosquitoes from biting her.

Barry Carter

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: [email protected] (Colin Leake)
Subject: Re: one more ideaDate: 15 Jul 96 16:28:05 GMT
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: undisclosed-recipients:@igc.org

Possible problems with pennyroyal.

Pennyroyal is an interesting plant as it is on the endangered plant
species list in the U.K. so supply might be a problem. However, ......

STU's (Elizabeth Mehlin's) comments on repellancy of pennyroyal
prompted me to make a quick literature search on MEDLINE.
Rutledge et al J Med Ent 1982. 19. 361-5. tested pennyroyal as a
flea repellent on animals and cited literature that it has been
licenced for use on pets as a 1% soap and at 0.775% in a collar
to control fleas. It has not been registered for human use in the US.

Later literature has pointed out that a component of pennyroyal oil
is the monoterpene Pulegone which is metabolised to menthofuran,
a hepatotoxin which depletes glutathione in the liver and plasma or
rats and mice.

There have been reports of human poisoning (Sullivan et al JAMA 1979
242 2873-4) admittedly after ingestion of quite large amounts. The
oil has apparently been used as a natural herbal regulator of menstruation.

A recent report of the death of a dog by (topical?) application of pennyroyal
to control fleas (Sudekum et al J AM Vet Med Assoc 1992. 200
817-8. sounds an additional note of caution.

Colin Leake.

Subject: 1481 Eudoxus?
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:45:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steve Feite

Hello:

Does anyone know if the following 'Eudoxus' is the one to whom the "Six
Keys of Eudoxus" is attributed:

"Eudoxus of Cnidos: The greatest of all Greek astronomers, a contemporary
of Plato, (4th C. BC) was largely reponsible for introducing Zoroaster's
philosophical ideas to the Greeks. Born in Asia Minor in a Spartan city;
studied music, mathematics, medicine as a youth; later studied with Plato,
30 years his senior, in Athens; then later in Egypt under the priests
of Heliopolis. Back in Asia Minor he founded school that rivalled Plato's.
An Epicurean; largely reponsible for some of the finest sections in
Euclid's Elements of Geometry.

No writings of Eudoxus survive -- his ideas have been pieced together
by a consideration of the writings of Aristotle & Simplicius."

TIA,

S.A. Feite

Subject: 1482 Franciscans & alchemy
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 8:44:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: WTHEISEN

Jon:
The article is in The American Benedictine Review, vol.46, #3, 1995,
pp. 239-253. If you get more information on this matter, I will
appreciate hearing from you.

Tue Jul 30 16:17:48 1996
Subject: 1483 Ayurvedic Alchemy
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:28:31 -0400
From: Gilbert Arnold

Gilbert Arnold wrote;

">A strong man who practices with a woman who does not practice may
>drain her; to much uncirculated chi can lead to delusions, a little bit like
>what happens in western alchemy if you talk about to much and never do
>any lab work."

ayindaath wrote in response

>"I read about something similar on a tantric web site (the Church of
>Tantra, I believe). The called it psychic vampirism, as a man (or woman)
>who knows how to store energies drains someone who has no knowledge
>thereof.

Gilbert Arnold writes;

What I would like to underline is contained in the following anecdote;

A Taoist practitioner met and fell in love with a woman who was
anorgasmic. Our committed fellow worked on that problem and cleared it
up, with a lot of Chi, Love and seminal retention (including bumps all over
his body) over a 5 year period. Although happier in bed, the woman, who
did not do the practices, reported feeling tired after sex. To shorten this
story, the man, even with the best of intentions, was draining her. Today,
this couple is happy, even if the male has to stop breathing during the
climatic event.

So just be careful.

Blessings,

Gilbert

Subject: 1484 Arcanum Experiment
From: Atheris
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 13:22:35 +0100 ( + )

On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 Patrick J. Smith wrote:

snip
>In particular, he (Latz) references two compounds called "Pulvis
>Solaris" and "Liquor Hepatis." Is anyone familiar with these terms
>and know their formula? From my progress so far in the translation, it
>seems that the Pulvis contains "sulfur auratum" and red mercuric
>oxide. The Liquor seems to be composed of hydrogen sulfide and
>ammonia.

If you don't know it already, then I can thoroughly recommend
"Alchemy Child of Greek Philosophy" by Arthur John Hopkins (publ.
Columbia UP 1934, reprinted by AMS Press NY 1967). This quite
excellent little book gives an overview of the development of the early
alchemical art in Egypt, with particular reference to the colouring and
tingeing of metals. You will find the red sulphide of mercury and other
materials discussed there.

Adrian Monk

Subject: 1485 Flamel in Vatican
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:30:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Claude Gagnon

Our moderator gave us about a year ago, a reference to a Latin
manuscript of the Book of Hieroglyphical Figures in the Rossiano
collection in the Vatican. There is a first Latin manuscript, discovered
and edited by Kjell Lekeby recently. I have been able to look at the microfilm
of the Vatican Ms. yesterday and, at first sight, it is based, like, the former, on
the French edition of 1612. But, the Latin text is very slightly different
in many sentences. The problem is now greater than ever. A Latin
manuscript of a French translation, even if it is an artefact, is a
logical object to find. A second Latin Ms. is less simple. I do not think,
for now, that the Vatican Ms. is dependent on the one in Stockholm; it is
as it would be a parallel event; the illustrations of the Book of Abraham in
the Vatican MS. are the most beautiful of all I have seen.

The mystery remains and gets deeper: if the purpose of the first author is
still a major aenigma in the history of French alchemy, what was the purpose
of the author of the OTHER manuscript regardless if it is the one in Sweden or
the one in Italy. Flamel's story is not over...

Claude Gagnon

Subject: 1486 Eudoxus?
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 13:32:37 -0500
From: george leake

>From: Steve Feite
>Does anyone know if the following 'Eudoxus' is the one to whom the "Six
>Keys of Eudoxus" is attributed: [edited for brevity]

*allow me to speculate if this doesn't pan out, Eudoxus could be a
pseudonym. Assuming pseudonyms or false identities is not all that
common--witness the example of Cleopatra the alchemist or speculations
surrounding Hermes Trismegistus in the Renaissance.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Subject: 1487 Arcanum Experiment
From: Dennis William Hauck
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:44:04 -0700

Thanks for the information. I am in the process of trying to secure a copy
of Hopkins book.

Subject: 1488 Dee and Kelly transmuting powder
From: John Chas Webb
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:50:45 -1000

Reply to OISPEGGY who wrote (edited):

>... so much nonsense has been written about Kelley, and he is
>such an easy target, that separating the facts from the fiction is
>probablya job which can only be accomplished by an alchemist.

***************************************************************************

The "solution" to the interpretations of the adventures of Dee and Kelley
is in understanding the symbols ! The whole adventure is really quite
comical. To "get it" one must experience the whole of the tale as an
"alchemical allegory" !

Well, here goes:
Dee and Kelley represent 2 halves of the same person (the alchemist). Dee
(the "saint") represents Man's noble aspects (this is reinforced by his
association with royalty). Kelley (the "rogue") represents the polar
opposite. Each represents the white and red powders and their "story" is a
fantastic account of the mixing of these two Alchemical substances.
Duality demands that both "halves" are required as they represent the
duality (saint/rogue - gold/lead - good/bad) which must interact to produce
an Alchemical result.
All of the various tales of these "two guys" continue to add attributes to
their characters ! It's an absolute laugh riot ! The "earless" Kelley
represents someone who has lost contact with his feminine side. The sense
of hearing (ears) is our most feminine sense (something always going "in").
(consider also: the giant size ears of Buddha as a symbol of entering the
feminine side to experience rebirth).
Dee's work with Kelley is a "boiler plate" living symbol of how the noble
aspect (of the Alchemist) must work with (penetrate) that part of ourselves
which has been corrupted. The initial interactions produce "crazyness"
however, persistence eventually gets you "connected" to the angelic
presences (more gold).
The adventures of Dee and Kelley (sometimes even spelled "Kelly" who may
have gained an "E" , a symbol of Light, because of interacting with Dee -
MORE COSMIC JOKES) is an "organic master work" depicting how our dual
natures interact and how divine forces deal with these seeming "opposing"
natures.
The biggest joke of all was when Dee contacted the angels through Kelley
and wound up with "an apocalypse" !!! (Again paradox and duality !) This
is the MOST SIGNIFICANT symbol in the whole Dee and Kelley series. It
reveals the "beginning place" of "The Great Work" because once you have
truly "made contact" with the divine the true Alchemical work begins. That
work is to then merge with the numinous and this requires your
dismemberment (disolution) and re-SOLUTION on the OTHER SIDE OF
DEATH! (Oh death WHERE is thy sting [more jokes]).
Hang on as this will now make great sense ! The stopping place of Dee was
at the door of the apocalypse. This is also the stopping place of the mind
because we cannot "see" the other side.
Not "seeing" we MUST trust, trusting begins to refurbish our downtrodden
inner feminine, and as we continue to trust the soul gradually re-emerges
and devoures ourmortal self and its attendent fear of death. Finally, when
our mortality has been completely TRANSMUTED all that is left is OUR
GOLDEN SOUL ! The Great Work has been accomplished. The LAST
SUPPER has been completed !
The "apocalypse" is a SYMBOL of the achemist's death (Dee-SOLUTION)
and resurrection as an immortal adventurer and time traveller. It is the ONLY
GATEWAY back to Eden where our feminine nature is no longer "subordinated"
to our masculine. It is trusting that stokes the fires that incinerate the
dross off of the Alchemist's Gold !
The great humor of The Adventures of Dee and Kelley can only be fully
savored by someone who has "the apocalypse" behind them. Someone who's
lead has been transmuted (back) to gold. The Alchemist's laboratory is the
place of the apocalypse for LEAD and the place of resurrection (to rise
again) for the gold which has, once again, been restored to its pristine
nature by The Master Alchemist. Do you IDENTIFY with your SOUL (GOLD) or
with your MORTALITY (LEAD) ? There's some DUALITY for YA ! :)

May you all find your ears,
John Charles Webb
[email protected]

Subject: 1489 Edward Kelly's writings
From: Jon Marshall
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:35:12 -0700

Thank you Adam for the extra bibliographical information about Kelly. Naturally
it opens further questions.

> Printed book material.
>
> Ludwig Hermann COMBACH. Tractatus aliquot chemici singulares summum
> philosophorum archanum continentes. ..... Cum fragmentis
> Eduardi Kell�i, H. Aquil� Thuringi, et Joh. Isaaci Hollandi.

What are these fragments of Kelly? are they related to the latin Treatises?
(but see next comment)

> Joannes BELYE. Tractatus duo chemici singulares et breves quorum prior est
> Johannis Belye, alter Bernhardi Comitis Trevirensis. His appendicis loco
> adduntur... Gesmari�: typis Salomonis Schadewitz, sumptibus Sebaldi K�hlers.
> 1647.
> Item 2. Excerpta qu�dam ex epistolis Eduardi Kell�i Angli.

According to Ferguson this is an excerpt from the L.Combachius book, so we can
assume the 'fragments' are the letters (and this is *not* a separate testimony).

I presume these are the excerpts from the letters that Waite translates in his
collection of Kelly's writings.
Do we have any idea to whom they were written, and how they were obtained?

> Gin�ceum chimicum; seu, congeries plurium anthorum qui in artem hermeticam
> de lapide philosophico scriptserunt, quorum tractatus nec in Theatro, aut
> alio volumine usque adhuc simul impressi fuerunt... Volumen primum. Lugduni:
> Jean de Trevis. 1679.
> Item 12. Ex Epistola Eduardi Kellaei.

Again according to Ferguson this occupies about 1 page of this book, so I guess
it is the same excerpts as in the previous books?

> T�da Trifida Chimica, Das ist: Dreyfache Chimische Fackel....
>, N�rnberg: in Verlegung Johan
> Andre� und Wolffgang Endters dess J�ngern Sel. Erben. 1674.
> Item 7. Aus einem Schreiben Eduardi Kell�i.
> Item 8. Aus einer Epistel Eduardi Kell�i.

I am guessing again as these items take up 4 or so pages that they are the same
letters again, but translated into German?

If they are the Waite items, I am somewhat surprised at their wide distribution
as I wouldn't have considered them that profound, but perhaps that just proves
I'm no adept.

> Manuscript material.
> London, Wellcome Institute MS. 577. [Early 17th Century.]
> Item 2. ff14v-22 Kent. [Letter on alchemy in English 'to his frind and Sonne
> M. William Johnson Dr. of Physick in the Lowe countries... July 14 1596'.
> This includes a copy of a letter from Edward Kelley.

IS *this* the source?
(probably not as the letters in the Waite edition are dated earlier 1587-9)
Though this date of 1596, should indicate (if genuine) that the information
given to Dee in march 1995 was wrong (I always get a bit confused with the
different calendars, but I don't think I've made an obvious mistake there)

I remember reading somewhere the suggestion that the item "the stone of the
philosophers" in Waite's edition of the *Collectanea Chemica* was also by Kelly,
anyone else know about this, or remember where I might have read it?

jon

Subject: 1490 Arcanum Experiment
From: Dennis William Hauck
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:42:00 -0700

In response to Parick Smith's message 1476:

In my J.D. Holmes monograph on Latz' work, "Secret of the Emerald Tablet,"
I was able to include only a miniscule portion of my translation of his
"Die Alchemie." That work contains nearly a million words and he spent most
of his life writing it. So the lack of justification for many of his
conclusions in the monograph is due to publishing constraints. I intended
it only as a broad overview of his work on the Tablet.

I hope to publish a complete translation of "Die Alchemie" within the next
few years, which is why I am researching some of the chemicals he listed
for conducting the Arcanum Experiment. I really appreciate your comments
and, oddly enough, share your interest in the UFO phenomenon. Like you, I
think there are fundamental similarities in trying to interpret both the
Emerald Tablet and UFOs. The frustration comes from the inherent
mercuriality of both subjects.

Subject: 1491 Dee and Kelly transmuting powder
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 16:19:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charla J. Williams

Hi Clay,

> From: Clay Holden
>
> Waite also questions the likelihood that a man branded a criminal with
> cropped ears would have been welcomed in the circles he frequented, which
> included the royalty of more than one country.

The modern Robert Turner suggests the same thing in his 'Elizabethan Magic'.

Thanks for a great post! Charla

Subject: 1492 Ayurvedic Alchemy, Rasayana, etc.
From: John Chas Webb
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:24:33 -1000

Reply to Charla who asked (edited):

| Can you give some examples of how Indian Alchemy appears in
| Hindu Astrology?
**************************************************************************

Hindu astrology largely reflects and reinforces Hindu spiritual beliefs.
The underpinnings of Hindu culture is based upon the caste system which
teaches adaptation to one's "status" rather than the Western approach which
teaches that migrant workers can become President.
Also, Hindu astrology places greater emphasis on the Moon than on the
Sun. This lunar predominance also reflects the spiritual ideals of
honoring the feminine (Moon) which is reversed in Western astrology which
places the predominance on the masculine (Sun).
1) Lord Krishna, the God of devotion is represented by Jupiter (represented
by the metal tin in alchemy - a metal which is easily formed into shapes).
2) Lord Shiva, the God of destruction (destroyer of darkness/ignorance), is
represented by Saturn ("who" is lead in Western Alchemy).
3) Lord Vishnu, the God of intellegence and intellect is represented by
Mercury. (in Western Alchemy Mercury/quicksilver also represents the mind
or mental focus which must be liberated from the sulpher of self and then
engaged in devotion or, at least, re-trained to embrace a standard of
higher ideals).
Hindu astrology (differing from Western astrology) places the greatest
emphasis upon prediction. This is due in large part to the firm belief in
the law of Karma (justice) and its attendant instruction to disengage in
activities which produce more karma. There is NO system or method of Hindu
Alchemy which does not also include a spiritual philosophy.
The Hindu associations regarding alchemy are a distinct reflection of the
spiritual teachings of the Gita (The path of Kings).

The alchemical "teachings" are as follows:
Saturn (lead) reveals one's destiny or limited path which, when fully
embraced, creates the "furnace" into which one is placed to begin the work
of "purification". Working or engaging in activity for one's one personal
benefit is considered an error because it only creates more "lead"
(karma/weight) which must be dealt with later or in a future life. One is
encouraged to engage in activity for the benefit of the Lord who, if
pleased, restores one's spirit (good karma).
Note: This duality between working for self and working for the Lord is
reflected in Western Alchemy by the Alchemist who is "working" to produce
material riches OR the Alchemist who is engaged in restoring his/her soul
(gold) for a higher purpose.
Yielding to the tasks of Saturn makes one more mercurial. The devotee
shifts from the attitude of "I don't want to do such and such" to "I move
past my rigid patterning and embrace the task with joy".
As one is made more Mercurial (intelligent) then he or she begins to make
a mental connection between surrending to the flow (embracing the
feminine/Moon) and feeling better.
The surrendered activities of the devotee/alchemist, as they are directed
to the "earth" (physical expression), begin to bear great fruit. (See Also:
The Emerald Tablet and the completeness of directing the energies into the
earth).
With the devotee/alchemist the "surrender" begins to produce the estatic
condition of extascy (to be "outside of one's self" ) which, in turn,
produces devotion and great joy. The devotion and great joy indicates the
presence of Lord Krishna who, as the Lord of Devotion, bestows great
pleasure. In Hindu philosophy Lord Krishna is "The Supreme Enjoyer".
Jupiter, the "great beneficent", is the planetary god/symbol representing
the metal "tin" which indicates that the pleasures are easily transformed
and take many many shapes (manifestations).
A further "purification" is then entered to transform "the impurities" of
tin into silver. This is accomplished by the devotee/alchemist who enjoys
all of the great pleasure, not for him/her self but for the glory and love
of the Lord. (a further "reduction" of the "self")
The "gold" condition is beyond description and virtually unattainable in
its entirety. The absolute best attainment is to become silver (the Moon)
wearing gold as an outer garment. This is a symbol of the metaphysical
reality that all "appearance" is a manifestation of the Great Mother (the
feminine side of God/Silver) and that Gold/the masculine side of God is
not attainable but represents the Supreme Deity who is to be worshiped with
supreme devotion.
This is the whole of the process of the transmutation of base matter into
etheric expressions of divine love ! The presence of Lord Krishna and his
favorite consort Radha is a further expression of the supreme Alchemical
teaching. Krishna, The Supreme Enjoyer, favors the company of Radha who is
devoted to Krishna by her loving service to Him. She is irrestible to
Krishna ! The divine message is that "loving service produces supreme
enjoyment and makes one irrestible to the benevolent deities". The
"status" of Krishna and Radha indicates the supreme result of the
successful Hindu alchemist. Members of the lower castes will tell you that
this result is impossible and the High Priests quietly smile in estatic
silence !

Hare Krishna !
John Charles Webb
[email protected]

Subject: 1493 Serpents
From: et7
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 96 21:36:59 BST

For some private research I am doing, can anyone find links between
serpents and alchemy? Of course there is the Tantric Serpent Power, but
I was thinking of something more abstract? Or from any other
occult tradition?

$ita

Subject: 1494 Happy Birthday to Edward Kelley
From: John Chas Webb
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 11:55:43 -1000

Posted with great "thank you" for Clay Holden whose (edited) writings
appear above the line of stars ( * )

Our good friend Edward Kelley ( real name Talbot) wandering around England
after having his ears lopped off by a Lancashire executioner for fraud
supposedly came across a strange manuscript in a Welsh Inn which was found
along with two ivory phials in the grave of a monk. One contained a red
powder, the other white and with these an indecipherable text. Armed with
these Kelley charged off to see John Dee convinced that the spirits
conjured up via his scrying stone would be able to translate the text.

These facts are verifiable:
The "indecipherable text" was found by Dee to be a simple cipher, which he
decoded and included in his Spirit Diaries, along with its translation
purports to be a treasure map, and was in all likelihood a forgery.
August 1st celebrates the 441st anniversary of Kelly's
birthday, a significant number for the man who skryed the "Sigillum DEI
Aemeth" in Dee's crystal, and who wrote "I venture to hope that my life and
character will so become known to posterity that I may be counted among
those who have suffered much for the sake of truth." The word "Aemeth" in
Hebrew means truth, and has the value of 441 by gematria.

*************************************************************

Happy Birthday to Edward Talbot /Also known as Edward Kelly /A.K.A. Edward
Kelley who today celebrates his 441st birthday ! In Hebrew numerology
4+4+1 = 9 which is an indication of "truth" or completeness.

Kelley (the rascal) stands, even today, as one of the most enduring and
endEARing symbols of Man ! His activities reveal volumes of information to
all Alchemists and the various accounts of his life continue to contribute
colour and humor to his legacy. Like a drawing passed around in a circle
of Alchemists, the character of Edward Kelley has been enhanced by many
"rogues" who, with their tongue placed firmly in their cheek, added an
element or two to Kelley's developing character.

Poor "earless" Kelley, aware of Alchemy, finds certain substances along
with a MAN-YOU-SCRIPT and immediately sees this as an opportunity to turn a
profit ! He wants to produce GOLD ! We already know that the "earless
rogue" is the polar opposite of "The Big Eared Buddha/Also Known As 'The
GOLDEN ONE' ". Edward Kelley is me and you. He represents the
materialist aspect of the entry level alchemist who (which) is gradually
"turned-around" to embrace a more spiritually ORIENTed focus as progress is
made along the path.

To accomplish his plan he subjects himself to the whims of John Dee
who has collected an alchemical library. This action is a KEY to the
unfolding/deciphering of Kelley's manuscript !
John Dee was a type of "holy man" who believed in Providence and in
awaiting the direction of God's Will. In subordinating himself to Dee he
(Kelley) reveals the first indication of the 180 degree turn he is about to
make. The symbolism reveals that the rogue begins to surrender to divine
will even though he has the express intention of doing so for personal
material gain.
(Note: This "situation" suggests "copper/Venus" where the outer
appearances seem like gold/genuine, however, there is an inner corruption
of self interest.)

The interactions of Dee and Kelley are an "allegory" for the initial
interaction of the duality of the "PAIR of opposites". The "meeting" of
the "Material Mind" with a "Spiritual Reality". From this "point" on the
MAN-U-SCRIPT or SCROLL (see #2-High Priestess) begins to unroll as Kelley
surrenders to the "abuse of the angels" and enters his feminine/yielding
side. The "script"/manuscript/scroll is an additional symbol of Kelley.
"Man" is the manuscript which is unfolded by surrendering to "God". As
Kelley surrenders he is impregnating himself, he is "feeding the red powder
to the white", he is combining the pairs of opposites in his human nature
to (hopefully) produce an "alchemical result". He is transforming his
"rogue nature" by subjecting it to the noble motives of John Dee. Each
"yielding" produces a fixed transmutation (an alteration of Kelley's
character/personality) and brings Kelley closer and closer to the angelic
presences indicating Kelley's gradual transformation into a spiritual
being.

Gradually the "earless" rogue (now somewhat transformed) was welcome in
royal social circles as a further indication of his REFINEMENT. (see also:
The prodigal son).

The "Enochian Angels" contacted by Kelley during his "transformation"
presented an "Apocalyptic template" for the future of Man suggesting that
all hell was going to break loose in the underworld, where the dark powers
reign. The "Revelation of St. John" states that the apocalypse shall be
(started) determined by a "SINGLE HUMAN BEING WHO IS CALLED THE
ANTICHRIST". O.K. !!! Are you ready for the cosmic joke/punchline ?

Well, Here goes !
1) The "single human being" who operates in a way opposed (anti) to Christ
is YOU !
2) The "apocalypse" is a personal experience which begins at the exact
moment that you surrender (like Kelley) to a divine purpose. Your world
and everything you have "brought forth"
(the underworld) is placed into the fire (like LEAD) and gradually
TRANSMUTED to GOLD.
3) As you are "purified" by this process of surrender (Not my will but
Thine be done) you are, once again, welcome in Royal circles. Because the
selfish/unloving (anti-Christ) aspect of your being has been
purged/fumigated/rolfed/rock 'N rolled/TRANSMUTED/mortified and THEN
brought back to life (SEE: Book of Job -thats Job not job).
4) The "unholy denizens" await the Messiah to come and kick-ass WHILE THE
ALCHEMIST ADDRESSES HIM/HERSELF TO THE BUSINESS OF TURNING
HIS/HER LEAD (IGNORANCE) INTO GOLD (DIVINE WISDOM AND
UNDERSTANDING) thus mitigating the trauma of the apocalypse.
(the part that hurts is the part that's in error).

So this writing is dedicated to the "Edward Kelley" of EVERYMAN who, once
again, seeks his ears (feminine side) so that he can become A GOLDEN ONE.

AND, in further honor of "the rogue" I hereby
COPYRIGHT this writing on the 1st day of August 1996
and dedicate it to the perpetual enrichment of Edward Kelley and to my
personal bank account.

John Charles Webb
[email protected]

Subject: 1495 Serpents
From: Marcella Gillick
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 14:40:19 +0000

>>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 96 21:36:59 BST
>For some private research I am doing, can anyone find links between
>serpents and alchemy? Of course there is the Tantric Serpent Power, but
>I was thinking of something more abstract? Or from any other
>occult tradition?

>$ita
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

JUST for starters, I came across a huge mountain of stuff on the caduceus(sp)
and why the serpent might have been used, while brousing through the
Alchemy web yesterday (can't remember the heading I clicked on, but I'm
sure you'll find it for yourself. Serpents are a symbol for knowledge - In
Ireland we don't have any snakes, thanks to St Patrick (big joke!) so we use
the salmon insted, and one of our biggest mythological legends concerns 'The
Salmon of Knowledge'
Best wishes
Marcella Gillick

Subject: 1496 Serpents
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:14:27 -0500
From: george leake

>From: et7
>For some private research I am doing, can anyone find links between
>serpents and alchemy? Of course there is the Tantric Serpent Power, but
>I was thinking of something more abstract? Or from any other
>occult tradition?

*I hate to bore the entire alchemy forum with this brief response, so
perhaps you could put yr email address in yr sig.line for private
responses?

*the serpent as a symbol has long been linked to alchemy, probably since
the beginning. The term hermeticism of course comes from the Greek god
Hermes. Snake imagery is interwoven on his staff. This is the beginning of
it.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected]

Subject: 1497 Serpents
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:34:44 GMT
From: trjorda

I am not an expert in this subject but lets try to make some analogies in
order to give you some insights:

The serpent in the occult traditions is a symbol related to NAHASH or the
Astral Light. The Astral Light is ternary, Od, Ob and Aour. Aour is related
with the Salt, Od with Sulphur and Ob with Mercury. This means that the
three principles of Alchemy are present in the Nature. Nahash acts in the
Astral Plane of the Creation, as the intermediary between the upper world
and the lower world. It is the principle of the forms, the plastic substance
that one can transmutate and consequently affect matter. As above, so below.
As ths Astral Light, NAHASH has seven different color or tonalities merged
into one, that is, as the sun is the chief of the solar system and is
related with the white light, the other planets can be related with the
other color of the spectrum. This tonalities or color could be related with
the seven metals of Alchemy.
The serpent in the natural world from time to time changes its skin as the
metal can change its aspect transmuting themselves into higher states or
being attacked by some Nature agents.
There is another allegory related with the Serpent, the Ouroboros or the
Serpent that is a circle, conecting its beginning with its end. This symbol
gives another dimension to the meaning of Nahash, it introduces the concept
of time.
By analogy, the Ouroboros could represent the Zodiac and its 12
constellations. The 12 constellation can be associated with the twelve
phases of the Alchemy.
From this point on, the analogy chains can conduct our reasoning into
several different meanings.
Now, if we relate the serpent with the Book of Man, we can deduct some
things that can help us understanding our transmutation process: Be as wise
as the serpents, said the Christ.
Best wishes

Fri Aug 02 18:11:51 1996
Subject: 1498 Serpents
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 10:09:58 -0500
From: A'yin Da'ath

>For some private research I am doing, can anyone find links between
>serpents and alchemy? Of course there is the Tantric Serpent Power, but
>I was thinking of something more abstract? Or from any other
>occult tradition?

From QBLH (of a sort) and the bible-

The Serpent in Genesis is named NChSh (Nun Cheth Shin). Oh, I have heard it
pronounced one of two ways, Nechesh and Nechek; I'm not clear as to which is
the correct one, or if they both are wrong, or what- I shall have to ask a
Jewish friend sometime.

But to continue, Gematria is a form of divination or 'discovery' (of sorts)
by attributing a number value to a hebrew letter, then adding up the total
value of the word. This number will be common to more that one word
(sometimes), and the two words are linked by it. So YHVH, the Supreme, is
equal to 26, which is AchD (unity, equal to 13) plus love (I've forgotten
the word, but it also is equal to 13).

A QBLHistic riddle goes like this- NChSh, the serpent, is equal to 358. But
so is Messiah. Now, the two are somehow linked. General opinion seems to
think that the serpent was Satan (which is probably just resulting from
someone's snake phobia). The Messiah (to Christians) was Jesus. What do the
two have in common? Is the serpent the Messiah?

Not many people have tried to answer it (that I know of). My thoughts on the
matter are thus-

Both the Messiah and the Serpent bring (or brought) knowledge to mankind.
One brought the theory of Good and Evil, and the next (assuming Jesus was
the Messiah prophesized) redefined all of that. The common thread we have is
knowledge.

I could go on with a few tentative hypotheses about more QBLH re:knowledge,
but this forum is for alchemy. I can't tie serpents or Messiahs into
alchemy, but maybe someone else can.

[email protected]

Subject: 1499 Alchemy today: Coleman / Quantum paradox / UFT
From: Heileson, Thomas
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 96 10:33:00 PDT

Sorry I am referring to such an old post -- I've been decidedly behind in
keeping up with this list so far... I just wanted to throw out some random
thoughts and ask for comments.

>Subject: 1316 Alchemy today
>From: Waldemar Hammel

>Perception works like this:
>to recognize for example a chemical element we must seperate it from its
>original background, because we are unable to recognize the whole world and
>all the connections in it in one time (that would be called holistic
>recognition).
>When the element is seperated initializing the act of recognition it looses
>all
>its original semantics (original interactions) and by this would be out of
>existence (hardware without semantic simply does not exist, because it
>carries no interactions). To give it existence to be able to recognize it,
>perception charges that piece of hardware newly with semantics, but these
>are quasi private-semantics generated by the observer. With these
semantics
>the element is dressed (these semantics are called attributes).
>After that the observer has got a piece of hardware with attributes on it,
>and
>it seems, that the attributes are element-inherent, but they are not!
>
>When you accept the above described, alchemy is the logical consequence.
>When the attributes of things are generated not by things themselves but by
>our perception, we should be able to manipulate these attributes, change
>them etc.

* I am reminded here of concepts voiced/written by Jaz Coleman of the music
group Killing Joke, the idea of "creating one's own reality" which, with
Coleman, was/is linked to a cosmology of other ideas (Numerology, Crowley,
etc.). I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with Coleman's
philosophies; I've discussed him briefly with one listmember, but thought
I'd throw the subject out there.

>It originally concerns all objects of perception in this world, that the
>normal
>alchemist only works with chemical elements is only analogical, its an easy
>way to try out the above principles and problems. Originally alchemia
>treats with all things of perception observable in this world.
>The inner and the outer way of alchemia are complementary ways, the
>principle is a binary one as (+) and (-).
>
>Alchemia tries to have a holistic view of world, when they say e.g.
minerals
>grow like animals they may have an idea of what we call ecosphere, or when
>they search the general principle behind the creation of elements (in our
>perception), and element here means any element (object) in the world you
>want, not only chemical elements. They try to get sure about the unity of
>world, but as long as they suffer from binary religious pictures (God and
>Devil, good and bad) this philosophy is corrupted. I think it was Hermes
who
>said: as it is above it is at the bottom.... That speaks about unity of
this
>world behind all the foreground differences and contradictions.

* I see here analogies to ideas in quantum physics (as I understand it,
which is relatively little really) -- that is, that quantum theory allows
paradoxes... and that any principle taken to its absolute extreme equals the
absolute extreme of its converse counterpart. (The idea that truth lay in
paradox was felt by myself on an innate, unarticulated level throughout my
life, so that when some years ago I came upon correlating ideas in an Israel
Regardie text on Hermeticism, it struck a profound resonance in me.)

>So the usual God cannot belong to the unified principle of alchemia,
>although he may be included in it, because he is in struggles with his
>antipart, the Devil.
>
>The unified principle must be searched behind that language sponsored
>bivalent imaginations.(Wittgenstein) (Therefore alchemia runs a language
>laboratory with semantic and iconic experiments as well, look Abulafia et
>al. Cabbalists).

* ...and ideas here can be seen as related to the physicists' search for the
Unified Field Theory...

As I said, random comments. I'd be interested in any commentary on the
themes I've quite informally introduced. (Which may have been discussed
before, but not since I have sub'd.)

(please cc: any comments to [email protected] if possible)

Merc,

Thom S. Heileson

Subject: 1500 Serpents
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 11:09:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charla J. Williams

Hi Marcella,

> From: Marcella Gillick
> Serpents are a symbol for knowledge - In
> Ireland we don't have any snakes, thanks to St Patrick (big joke!) so we use
> the salmon insted, and one of our biggest mythological legends concerns 'The
> Salmon of Knowledge'

Isn't there something about salmon 'fed on hazel for the gift of sight'?
(lyric from a Jack Hardy song)

Regards, Charla

Subject: 1487 Arcanum Experiment
From: Dennis William Hauck
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:44:04 -0700

Thanks for the information. I am in the process of trying to secure a copy
of Hopkins book.

Subject: 1498 Serpents
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 10:09:58 -0500
From: A'yin Da'ath

>For some private research I am doing, can anyone find links between
>serpents and alchemy? Of course there is the Tantric Serpent Power, but
>I was thinking of something more abstract? Or from any other
>occult tradition?

From QBLH (of a sort) and the bible-

The Serpent in Genesis is named NChSh (Nun Cheth Shin). Oh, I have heard it
pronounced one of two ways, Nechesh and Nechek; I'm not clear as to which is
the correct one, or if they both are wrong, or what- I shall have to ask a
Jewish friend sometime.

But to continue, Gematria is a form of divination or 'discovery' (of sorts)
by attributing a number value to a hebrew letter, then adding up the total
value of the word. This number will be common to more that one word
(sometimes), and the two words are linked by it. So YHVH, the Supreme, is
equal to 26, which is AchD (unity, equal to 13) plus love (I've forgotten
the word, but it also is equal to 13).

A QBLHistic riddle goes like this- NChSh, the serpent, is equal to 358. But
so is Messiah. Now, the two are somehow linked. General opinion seems to
think that the serpent was Satan (which is probably just resulting from
someone's snake phobia). The Messiah (to Christians) was Jesus. What do the
two have in common? Is the serpent the Messiah?

Not many people have tried to answer it (that I know of). My thoughts on the
matter are thus-

Both the Messiah and the Serpent bring (or brought) knowledge to mankind.
One brought the theory of Good and Evil, and the next (assuming Jesus was
the Messiah prophesized) redefined all of that. The common thread we have is
knowledge.

I could go on with a few tentative hypotheses about more QBLH re:knowledge,
but this forum is for alchemy. I can't tie serpents or Messiahs into
alchemy, but maybe someone else can.

[email protected]