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Practical alchemy archives - Neutralising acetic acid

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From: Turiyan Gold
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997

Any ideas on how to neutralise the acetic acid from vinegar in a linament?
This is a particular injury formula that calls for you to soak various
herbs and minerals and even powdered bone in vinegar and when it is
ready for use, boil and when it is warm let your hands soak in in it till it
becomes cold.

It does warn that after prolonged use, your bones can become brittle. No
small wonder since acetic acid is a chelator of calcium.

I'm wonder just how long it would take.

Its obvious this formula NEEDS the acetic acid for a better extraction and
to chelate the other minerals in the formula. But, it doesn't seem to be
needed when it is ready for use.

Perhaps someone is aware of how and why a vinegar would be good for swelling
and imflamation.

Is there anyway to take the acetic acid out? If it is neutralised, is it "killed'?

Could lactic or maltic acids be substituted? Will sodium borate neutralise
acetic acid?

turiyan gold --

From: Greg
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 19


> Any ideas on how to neutralise the acetic acid from vinegar in a
>linament?

With other preparations I have worked with caustic soda is used to
neutralise. I am not sure but I think it does not really matter what the
alkali is that you use, the end solution is always the same, a neutral
solution. The tincture that the acid has extracted from your ingredients
will precipitate as pH nears neutral. Then leave to settle and decant the
liquid and collect the precipitate which should crystalise under the usual
conditions. The end product will not have any liquid acetic included in it
if you neutralise it though, (as far as your question about neutralisation
destroying the life of the acid is concerned).

Maybe someone else with more experience in chemistry, than I have,
can provide a better answer.

Greg

Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 23:31:55 UT
From: Carlos Sorentino

Dear Turiyan Gold

Your question "Is there anyway to take the acetic acid out? If it is
neutralised, is it "killed'?" is not completely clear.

On neutralization, an acetate ester will be formed. Acetates are both soluble
and easy to hydrolise. Therefore, in solution the acid will be formed. The
only way to "kill" the acetic acid will be either to decompose it or to
precipate it out of solution, but that is not a "neutralisation".

Acetic acid or its salts is not a "chelator", that is, it does not form
coordination complexes with cations.

Sodium borate will neutralise acetic acid because the borate ion is a weaker
base than the acetate anion. However, the difference in Kw between them is
such that it will take a considerable time for the reaction to complete.

I hope this is of some help

Best Regards

Carlos Sorentino

From: Turiyan gold
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:15:19 -0400


> From: Carlos Sorentino
>Your question "Is there anyway to take the acetic acid out? If it is
>neutralised, is it "killed'?" is not completely clear.

In essense. This old shaolin hand soaking formula needs to be made safe for
the hands. i.e. Does not make the bones brittle.

I remember when I soaked an egg in vinegar and after a short time it could
actually bounce...

>On neutralization, an acetate ester will be formed. Acetates are both soluble
>and easy to hydrolise. Therefore, in solution the acid will be formed. The
>only way to "kill" the acetic acid will be either to decompose it or to
>precipate it out of solution, but that is not a "neutralisation".

So if you boil vinegar, the acetic acid will precipitate off? Or will it
stay behind?

>Acetic acid or its salts is not a "chelator", that is, it does not form
>coordination complexes with cations.
>Sodium borate will neutralise acetic acid because the borate ion is a weaker
>base than the acetate anion. However, the difference in Kw between them is
>such that it will take a considerable time for the reaction to complete.

Weeks? Months?

Turiyan gold

From: Greg
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997

Carlos Sorentino said:

> On neutralization, an acetate ester will be formed.

Are you sure about this? I was asked some time ago by a biochemist if the
metallic Sulphurs were esters. I had not heard of esters so I asked around.
One individual told me that the subject was raised at one time in Frater
Albertus' classes but was not sure what the end conclusion on the matter
was.

If I understand your answer you are suggesting that the precipitate from
the neutralised (acetic) solution is an acetate ester? I am interested in
finding more out about this if it is correct. Have you ever read
Fulcanelli's 'The Mystere des Cathedrales'? I particularly refer to his
statements concerning the Kermes (and Kermis), which, I was taught, is a
substance (metallic Sulphur) precipitated out of a neutralised solution
(tincture), specifically in my case an acetic solution.

I also read somewhere that esters were sythesized for use as food
flavouring?

Regards

Greg

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997
From: Beat Krummenacher

Dear Greg,

you noticed as regards the statement of Carlos Sorentino:
>On neutralization, an acetate ester will be formed...

>Are you sure about this? I was asked some time ago by a
>biochemist if the metallic Sulphurs were esters. I had not heard of
>esters so I asked around. One individual told me that the subject
>was raised at one time in Frater Albertus' classes but was not sure
>what the end conclusion on the matter was.

One method of the ester formation is the reaction between an alcohol and an
acid. Acetic acid forms different acetic esters with alcohols according to
the type of the processed alcohol. Fundamentally is valid that each
molecule of an alcohol and of acetic acid form one molecule ester and one
molecule water. This process - marked as esterification in organic
chemistry - is a balanced reaction. Therefore the yield of the ester can be
increased, if one of the both starting materials exists in the excess.
Conversely the decomposition of the formed ester is furthered, if much
water is present.

That is to say - utilized to the being on the agenda reaction - that ester
hardly can be formed, because the solution contains quite a lot of water.
If the acetic acid is neutralized, for instance by addition of sodium
carbonate, so altogether no ester is formed at all. For the reactant acetic
acid is no more available. The assertion of Carlos is incorrect therefore.

Furthermore you say that you would have heard the metallic oils be esters.
Esters often can be contained in metallic oils. The main constituents are
however aldols, which are formed by the application of the spirit of
philosophical wine under the presence of a base, to which many metallic
salts count. The colored sulphurs of metals result from complicated
reactions as further aldol condensations and intramolecular reactions of
already formed enols. The palette of the emerging compounds quickly becomes
tangled, and so a metallic oil often exists of dozens of different chemical
compounds.

Furthermore you write:

>I particularly refer to his statements concerning the Kermes (and Kermis),
>which, I was taught, is a substance (metallic Sulphur) precipitated out of
>a neutralised solution (tincture), specifically in my case an acetic
>solution.

The kermes of antimony has nothing to do with the esterification. Kermes
mineral is nothing but an amorphous mixture of antimony trisulphide and
antimony trioxide. Formerly one manufactured it in that one dissolved
stibnite in a base. Usually one used as the base the lye from plant ash or
burnt tartar. If the formed solution is neutralized with acetic acid, so
the antimonous sulphide falls out as a red powder. On chemical examination
no great difference exists to the original stibnite, which itself is
antimonous sulphide. The difference lies in the modification, which
corresponds to the different colors of the differently manufactured
antimonous sulphides. Because the precipitated powder has a beautiful red
color like kermes (a dye from a scale insect), one called it kermes
mineral. Kermes mineral is therefore an inorganic antimony compound, which
is poisonous. It concerns a metal sulphide. However kermes mineral is not
the alchemical sulphur of antimony!

I hope that my above-mentioned remarks could clarify some obscurities.
Strictly speaking the whole affair still is much more complicated. The
simplification has the purpose to let better shine forth the essential.

Lapis

From: Greg
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997

Once again Beat, thanks...

> The kermes of antimony has nothing to do with the esterification. Kermes
> mineral is nothing but an amorphous mixture of antimony trisulphide and
> antimony trioxide. Formerly one manufactured it in that one dissolved
> stibnite in a base. Usually one used as the base the lye from plant ash
> or burnt tartar. If the formed solution is neutralized with acetic acid, so
> the antimonous sulphide falls out as a red powder. On chemical
> examination no great difference exists to the original stibnite, which
> itself is antimonous sulphide.

I shall have to think about this. I am not sure that my experience with
this process in the past agrees with your explaination. I would be
surprised if the precipitate was 'not much different to the original
sibnite'. I have ingested a good amount of a tincture made by this process
fromthe trisulphide (after final extraction with ethyl alcohol) and found
it to be to the sight, smell and taste and immediate effect not too
different from standard Balm of Antimony obtained from yellow glass of
Antimony through Valentines process with the K.M. No unsavoury side
effects.

If what you say above is true the precipitate would be quite poisonous and
still very unsafe to ingest after a last careful extraction of the Oil with
E.Alcohol?

> The difference lies in the modification, which
> corresponds to the different colors of the differently manufactured
> antimonous sulphides. Because the precipitated powder has a beautiful red
> color like kermes (a dye from a scale insect), one called it kermes
> mineral. Kermes mineral is therefore an inorganic antimony compound,
> which is poisonous. It concerns a metal sulphide. However kermes
> mineral is not the alchemical sulphur of antimony!

(???)

Regards

Greg

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997
From: Gilbert Arnold


Greg wrote;

" I have ingested a good amount of a tincture made by this process
fromthe trisulphide (after final extraction with ethyl alcohol) and found
it to be to the sight, smell and taste and immediate effect not too
different from standard Balm of Antimony obtained from yellow glass of
Antimony through Valentines process with the K.M. No unsavoury side
effects."


Dear Greg,

There are not many ways to tell you this diplomatically; you are poisoning
yourself. The "No unsavoury side effects." and the light buzz you may
fell at ingestion time is merely an effect caused by adrenaline your body
secrets in reaction to the poison. Somewhere back in the archives there
is a discussion about "mineral vinegar" that is essentially an antimony
vinegar prepared with distilled vinegar rather than water.

This is circulated over powdered glass of antimony; the solution, if
properly prepared, should become blood red rather than a pissy yellow.
This is circulated for some time. The menstuum is distilled off, the
powder may or may not be sweetened with water depending on the
colour of the powder.

Properly prepared wine spirits (as described in the Last Testament) are
ciculated at low temperature over the powder until the the reflux in the
bulb goes from straight lines to light diffracting droplets. The extract is
distilled than purified by sublimation. Not a work for amateurs.

This discussion started with someone asking something about a chinese
linement made with vinegar. By the looks of things, that person's
question was not answered. Drop in caustics indeed ! The alkaline
environment could influence the phytochemicals. Exposing
phytochemicals to acids some times causes the formation of salts.
Changing the ph can cause precipitation, thus rendering the linament
useless. If someone could post the ingredients to the linament we could
perhaps figure out an answer to the original question. Anyway, I found
a fairly good website on

http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/LFSC/life_sciences/.plant_biology/Medicinals/pharmacognosy2.html

and I've added a few notes; I'd like some comments.


Blessings,

Gilbert



CONTENT:

AMINO ACIDS
CARBOHYDRATES
LIPIDS
ALKALOIDS
VOLATILE OILS
STEROIDAL COMPOUNDS
TERPENOIDS
PHENOLS
GLYCOSIDES



AMINO ACIDS

In plants, amino acids are broken down into two groups, protein, and
non-protein. Most protein is water and dilute alcohol soluble.
There are twenty proteins, derived from the acid hydrolysates of plant
proteins (as with animal proteins). Plant proteins are essential for
carrying out specific cellular functions both internally and externally.
Plant proteins are seed-based store-houses for nitrogen and guard
against would-be predators. Some are toxic to humans, some are of
daily necessity in the human diet. Some, furthermore, have been
developed into specific drugs: L-Dopa, from fava beans and other
Fabaceae/Leguminosae, is used in the treatment of Parkinson's disease;
L-Cysteine, found in all plants, is used in eye drops and topical
antibiotics. L-Arganine stimulates the pituitary gland to release growth
hormone. L-Aspartic acid is present in coffee, liquorice, sugar cane,
sugar beet, and is neuro-excitatory. It is the phytochemical responsible
for so-called 'sugar highs,' and is in aspartame (Harborne, 61-67).


CARBOHYDRATES AND RELATED COMPOUNDS

Plant energy storage components are referred to as carbohydrates. The
group which the term
carbohydrates represents includes mono-(sucrose, lactose, etc.), and
poly-(starch, inulin)
saccharides, some acids which are produced after cellular carbohydrate
respiration, alcohols such
as sorbitol and cellulose; and gums and mucilages. For the purposes of
therapeutics, usually the
polysaccharide and gum/mucilage subgroups are most important.

Polysaccharides are known to exert a beneficial action on the body's
immune system, increasing its strength. They are produced through the
linkage of simple or single sugars linked by ethers in
various and complex ways, and are divided into two categories,
water(sometimes hot) soluble or water non-soluble. Plant
starch, gums, mucilage, cellulose (and sub-group hemicellulose) are all
polysaccharides.

Cellulose, i.e., cotton, powdered cellulose, microcrystalline cellulose, and
purified rayon, is another polysaccharide, whose derivatives, have
been developed as bulking agents for the alleviation of constipation, as
opthalmic solutions, topical emollients and protectants, and as agents
meant to reduce the appetite (Tyler et al., 44-45).

It has been difficult for phytochemists to distinguish between gums
(almost insoluble in alcohol) and mucilage categorically.
Presently, it is generally agreed that while gums are water solvent
and insoluble in alcohol, mucilage will become a slimy mass; and, that
gums are pathologically formed while mucilages are physiological in
origin (Tyler et al., 46).

Mucilage, therapeutically, can reduce bowel irritation, gut irritation,
peristalsis, toxin absorption,
cough, bronchial and urinary spasm. Mucilage can also increase
expectoration (Cabrera, 35). As a gelating agent, the polysaccharide
hydrocolloidal carrageenan often finds its way in ice cream; it is also
used as a laxative ingredient. Perhaps the most common bulking agent
derived from a
polysaccharide comes from Plantago major, whose seed, the psyllium,
can bulk itself up with the
addition of water sufficiently to initiate peristalsis and evacuate the
bowels (Tyler, 45-56).

LIPIDS

Fixed oils, fats, waxes, phosphatides, and lecithins, as members of the
lipid group, are made up of esters of long-chain fatty acids and alcohols
which contain carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Fixed oils are liquid at
normal temperature, fats are solid; however this distinction does not
always come through, especially with differences in climate.

Lipids are often a main constituent in drugs, separated by expression
from the crude vegetable
(plant) matter and presented as drugs in the refined state (Tyler, 82).
Plant seeds are the largest
source (e.g. sesame seeds,almonds, linseed) of lipids (Tyler, 83; Evans,
322). They are soluble in alcohol, ether, volatile oils or other fats. They
are insoluble in water or glycerine. Heated in the presence of alkalies,
they form soaps and one of the by-products is glycerine. Fats and fixed
oils are obtained chiefly by the process of expression, such as castor
oil, olive oil, cocoa butter.
Waxes; compounds of fatty acids with certain alcohols. Differ from fats
chiefly in containing no glyceryl. Soluble in oils when heated

ALKALOIDS

Alkaloids are arguably the most potent therapeutic compounds and have
been manufactured as
various allopathic drugs, including the pain-killer morphine and the
anti-malarial quinine. Derived from amino acids, alkaloids represent a
varied and complex class of nitrogenous crystalline or oily compounds.
Alkaloid levels in a given botanical change in the course of the day and
are not homogeneous, which makes them difficult to define (Tyler et al.,
186). Their presence appears to be most prevalent in the
Fabaceae/Leguminosae, Papaveraceae, Ranunculaceae, Rubiaceae,
Solanaceae, and Berberidacea families. Plant genera providing the
highest yield of alkaloids are Nicotiana, Vinca, Strychnos, Papaver
sominifera, and Rauwolfia serpentina (Evans, 545).

Pyrrolidine, tropane, or solanaceous alkaloids effect the peripheral
nervous system, inhibiting
the parasympathetic nervous system and stimulating the sympathetic.
Pupils dilate, secretions slow, and the vagus nerve is inhibited (causing
vasodilation, bronchial dilation, and reduced peristalsis)
(Harborne and Baxter, 300-308).

Pyridine and piperidine alkaloids represent a class which affects the
central nervous system,
reduces appetite, and contains other properties usually diuretic or
diaphoretic in action. Nicotine,
lobeline, and coniine are examples. Coniine is extremely toxic (Harborne
and Baxter, 243-254).

Pyrrolizidine alkaloids are under fire today as chemists and doctors try to
determine the human
hepatotoxicity of these agents which can damage liver veins, causing
hepatic veno-occlusive disease
(Awang, 20-22). Toxicity to livestock is demonstrated by the fact that
50% of livestock deaths
occur through the ingestion of a plant that contains these alkaloids
(Harborne and Baxter, 255).
Because of five well-publicized deaths (one of which was the
teratogenic poisoning of a fetus)
following the consumption of an herb(comfrey) that had been regarded
as safe, plant families in
which pyrrolizidine alkaloids are most often found (Boraginacea,
Asteraceae/Compositae, and
Fabaceae/Leguminosae) are of immense concern to both herbalists and
the FDA (Mattocks, 724).

Indole alkaloids are derived from tryptophan, and apart from the few with
hallucinogenic effects,
indoles such as serotonin, harmine and reserpine have a sedative effect
on the central nervous
system. Other constituents in this category are cytostatic, antileukemic,
or are able to act on the
ratio of oxygen and glucose to the cell, specifically increasing oxygen to
deprived areas.

Quinoline alkaloids are named from quinoline in the cinchona plant, and
refers to the quinoline
alkaloids developed in the nucleus from tryptophan (Tyler et al., 202).
Included in this group are
quinine, the anti-malaria medication, and quinidine, which calms the heart
in tachycardiasis and
arrhythmia, and others. Chinchonine is an astringent and a bitter.
Isoquinoline alkaloids are derived from tyrosine and phenylalanine.
The therapeutic value of this class of alkaloid differs according to the
sub-categories, which include simple, benzyl, Papaveraceae, codeine,
protopine, protoberberine, and ipecac isoquinolines. The protoberberines,
which include berberine, hydrastine, and canadine, are anti-bacterial,
anti-protozoal, astringent, tonic, bitter tasting, and respiratory,
vasomotor, and circulatory stimulants. Alkaloids unite with acids to
form salts, in the manner of ammonia.
Most alkaloids are somewhat soluble in alcohol (this will be
enhanced by adding glycerine) and some are soluble in water.
Some will form salts with vinegar.

VOLATILE OR ESSENTIAL OILS

Volatile oils are usually responsible for the odor of a plant. Volatile, or
essential, oils evaporate with air. They can contain hundreds of
constituents, the highest of which are terpenes. Hydrocarbons (as with
acillin, from garlic), alcohols, aldehydes (this group includes cinnamon oil,
orange oil, lemon peel, lemon oil, hamamelis water, and citronella oil,
whose medicinal purposes include the astringent quality of witch hazel).
Therapeutically, volatile oils have many uses. They can serve as a mode
of transportation, to distribute a medicine equally throughout the body.
They can act as antiseptics. Volatile oils tend to stimulate tissues they
come in contact with, hence they can be rubefacients, counter-irritants,
and/or vasodilators. Internally, volatile oils may cause an increase in
saliva, perspiration, peristalsis, and/or stimulate the heart muscle
(Cabrera, 40). Soluble in alcohol, slightly in water and some
fixed oils.

STEROIDAL COMPOUNDS

Steroids are a natural product class of widely distributed compounds.
Steroids develop and control the reproductive tract in humans, molt
insects, induce sexual reproduction in aquatic fungi. Therapeutically,
steroids contribute cardiotonics (digitoxin), Vitamin D precursors, oral
contraceptives (semi-synthetic progestins), antiinflammatory agents
(corticosteroids) and anabolic agents (androgens).The phytochemical
make up of this group of plant glycosides always includes a 4-membered
hydrocarbon ring. This is true in animal-derived steroids and synthesized
steroids as well.

In plants, steroidal content is divided into steroid saponins (soluble in
water), which are very similar to triterpenoid
saponins in the terpenoid group; or, they may be compounds which
render them steroid alkaloids,
from the alkaloid group(Harborne and Baxter, 290, 689). Steroidal
compounds serve many
functions both for the plant and also for humans: Combined steroids
derived from plants have
proven and continue to be valuable for medicinal purposes that range
from topical antibiotics to
relieving dysmenorrhea (ibid.; Evans, 480-488). See:terpenoid saponins,
steroid saponins, steroid
alkaloids.

TERPENOIDS

Terpenoids form the largest group of plant products and are the most
common ingredient in volatile oils. They include camphor, Beta-carotene,
and digitalin, for example, and are sometimes referred to as isoprenoids,
due to the fact that all terpenoids are derived from a 5-carbon precursor
isoprene (Harborne and Baxter, 552). Terpenoids are categorized as
monoterpenoids and monoterpenoid lactones, sesquiterpenoids and
sesquiterpenoid lactones, diterpenoids, and triterpenoids. Of these four
groups, triterpenoids forms the largest. Carotenoids are formed through
a head-to-tail combination of geranylgeranyl pyrophosphate, the same
precursor to monoterpenoids (ibid.).

Monoterpene, sesquiterpene, and diterpene alkaloids, as well as
steroidal alkaloids, are classified as alkaloids due to the presence of
nitrogen in their structure. Despite that classification, those
alkaloids, and some phenols as well (for instance, rotenone), may
contain terpenoidal atoms or
compounds or isoprenoid derivatives (ibid.).

Monoterpenoids have a head-to-tail formation of their ten-carbon
precursor, geranyl
pyrophosphate (Harborne and Baxter, 555). These constituents are
present in volatile oils.
Monoterpenoids often have a strong smell; they are the source of such
scents as spearmint
(carvone), bergamot and lavendar (both of which contain linalyl acetate),
and sweet rose (nerol)
(ibid, PD2042, PD2059, PD2065; Evans, 321). Monoterpenoids occur in
insect pheromones as
well. Monoterpenoids vary in pharmacological use, as expectorants,
anthelmintics,
anticholesteremics, insecticides, and antiseptics.

The phrase bitter principles (Soluble in water and alcohol), which
refers to the bitter-tasting monoterpenoid lactones known as iridoids are
also components of volatile oils and have been used to stimulate actions
within the body, such as mucosal or gastric secretion. The attachment of
a glucose to a hydroxyl group on the lactone ring is the determining
factor in recognizing a lactone. These isoflavonoid polyphenols are
sometimes also referred to as iridoid glycosides, because they are often
present in glycosidic form . Iridoids usually occur in angiosperms,
especially valerian, gentian, blue flag, and orris root, and can have, aside
from the therapeutic actions described above, antimicrobial and
antileukemic properties (Harborne and Baxter, 555, 569).

Sesquiterpenoids occur with monoterpenoids in plant essential oils,
especially in the families
Labiatae, Myrtaceae, Pinaceae, and Rutaceae. They also occur in
micro-organisms, marine animals, fighting insects, and insect pheromonal
secretions. Some are very toxic, but sesquiterpenes can be used as
antifungals, carminatives, insecticides, or as an antibiotic. This latter
action has been successfully demonstrated against staphylococcus
areus and candida albicans, by sesquiterpenes found in marine alga
(Duke, 584, Harborne and Baxter, PD2141). A sesquiterpenes found in
chamomile, is an antiinflammatory agent (Harborne and Baxter, PD2123).

With the addition of a y-lactone sesquiterpenoids become sesquiterpene
lactones such as those
found in absynthe and arnica (Harborne and Baxter,599). The
cytotoxicity of sesquiterpene lactones prevents their widespread use
but encourages research into antitumor applications. Often these are the
components causing contact dermatitis and some are lethal (ibid.).

Resins are non volatile secretions or excretions, some said to be
oxidation products of essential oils. Soluble in alcohol,fixed oils and
volatile oils.
Oleo-Gum resins; milky exudates from plants which are composed of a
gum or gums partly or wholly soluble in water, and a resin or resins
soluble in alcohol. Gum-resins, when mixed in with water, yield
emulsions, the gum more or less dissolving while the resin becomes
suspended in the solution.

Oleo-resins; natural solutions of resins in essential oils, where the latter
can be separated by distillation.

Balsams; resins or oleo resins with aromatic substances. They may be
liquid or solid and are soluble in alcohol.

Many resin acids, termed diterpenoid acids are included in this group, as
are plant hormones called gibberellins. Many of the diterpenoids are
toxic, similar to sesquiterpenoids, but some have antibiotic, antiviral,
antiinflammatory, and bitter tonic uses (ibid). Ginkgolides, diterpenoids
from the Ginkgo biloba plant, are fast becoming one of today's most
highly-esteemed phytochemicals, finding use in the treatment of memory
loss, allergies, asthma, brain injury, and more (DeFeudis, 1991; Harborne
and Baxter, PD2447; Petkov et al., 106).

Triterpenoid saponins, or sapogenins, are plant glycosides which lather
in water and are used in
detergents, or as foaming agents or emulsifiers, and have enormous
medical implications due to their antifungal, antimicrobial, and adaptogenic
properties. Glycyrrhizin, from licorice root, is an example of a saponin
used for antiinflammatory purposes in place of cortisone (Harborne and
Baxter,
PD2536).

Steroid saponins are similar to the sapogenins and related to the cardiac
glycosides Therapeutically, steroidal saponins their ability to interact
medically and beneficially with the cardiac glycosides, sex hormones,
Vitamin D, and other factors, render these phytochemicals components
of great medical significance (Evans, 481). For instance, diosgenin, from
Wild Yam, was used in the development of the first oral contraceptive
(Harborne and Baxter, 689).

Phytosterols are necessary to plant membranes and plant cell growth.
Sitosterol, stigmasterol, and
campesterol are the most common (Harborne and Baxter, 712). It has
been demonstrated that
B-sitosterol decreases the risk of atherosclerosis by lowering plasma
concentrations of LDL's
(low-density lipoproteins) (Lehninger, 614). Ergosterol, combined with
ultra violet light, becomes vitamin D2. Vitamin D3, mentioned in the first
issue of The Protocol Journal of Botanical Medicines as a topical
treatment for psoriasis, is obtained from 7-dehydrocholesterol (Tyler et
al., 161).

Carotenoids, or forty-carbon tetraterpenoids, are lipid-soluble terpenes
found in all forms of plants. Their value to animals comes from the
splitting of the C40 molecule into the twenty-carbon isoprenoid alcohol
known as Vitamin A, a process which occursafter the substance has
been ingested (Guyton, 867; Harborne and Baxter, 745).

PHENOLS
Phenols, which are also called polyphenols or phenolic compounds, are
plant substances which
have an aromatic ring bearing one or more hydroxyl groups (Harborne
and Baxter, 324). Phenols
are widely splattered throughout the plant kingdom. Food and drink owe
their actions on our senses to phenols. To many other phytochemical
classifications this is the parent group, but phenols may also be
contained as constituents in compounds through which a botanical
phytochemical exists under a different classification.

The flavonoids constitute about one-half of the eight-thousand or so
recognized phenols. The rest
are broken down into phenylpropanoids, anthones, stilbenoids, and
quinones. The compounds have a myriad of medical functions. From the
perspective of the plant kingdom, polyphenolic compounds are important
contributors to the survival of plant species through the insurance of
successful pollination, and also provide plants with an unpleasant taste
so that possibly threatening herbivores are repelled (ibid.).

Flavonoids are molecules responsible for the color of fruit and flowers.
They are beneficial to man as powerful antioxidants, stress modifiers,
anti-allergic agents, anti-viral compounds and
anti-carcinogens (Evans,420). Some are able to stimulate protein
synthesis, and some are known
antiinflammatory agents. Still others have demonstrated vaso-protective
activity. Some are diuretic, antispasmodic, antibacterial,and antifungal
(Harborne and Baxter, 367-415).

While some flavonoids may be classified as flavonoid glycosides, all are
phenols, but flavonoids,
flavonals, flavanones, isoflavones, and xanthones, all stem from
flavones. Flavones have effectively been used to tone blood cell walls
and bloodcells. Anthocyanidins and anthocyanins are related flavonoids.
These, and flavones in general, occur most frequently as glycosides.

Isoflavones occur less frequently as glycosides, more often in their free
state, and have a higher
degree of structural variation(Harborne and Baxter, 415).

Tannins are polyphenolic compounds and are divided into two groups,
i.e., the hydrolyzable and
non-hydrolyzable tannins, and the condensed tannins. Hydrolyzable
tannins are thought to be
hepatotoxic with overuse; condensed tannins appear not to have this
action.

In general, tannins are astringent and antiseptic. Hamamelitannin, from
witch hazel bark is a source of pharmacologically-used tannin (Evans,
386-388) and often found in men's aftershave lotions. A polyphenol
classified as a napthaquinone, plumbagin, for example, found in the
Round Leaved Sundew (Drosera rotundifolia) a plant indigenous to
coastal Maine, has shown anti-bacterial properties and continues to be
researched for its anti-cancer actions (Evans, 672).

GLYCOSIDES

Glycosides, or sugar ethers, are a complex grouping which can be
broken down to yield one or
more sugars (glycones), plus a non-sugar component (aglycones). It is
important to note that
glycosides are not a major classification of phytochemicals, as are
alkaloids, carbohydrates, phenols and terpenoids. However, it is often
when a phytochemical is in its glycosidic form that a
constituent may have a specific therapeutic action. Neucleotide
glycosides, in combination
with particular compounds, create specific glycosides in plants, the
distinction between which is
signified by a C-, S-, N-, or O-. The letters indicate that the formation of
the glycoside is dependent on interaction with Carbon, Sulphur, Nitrogen,
or alcohol/phenol components, respectively (Evans, 281). Given this
mutability, glycosides can occur in any of the major phytochemical
classifications, because a sugar ether can bind itself to molecules in a
myriad of
ways. Glycosides are most commonly classified according to the
chemical nature of the aglycone,
and have vast medicinal applications as they are found in almost every
therapeutic class.

Some phytochemical groups, such as anthraquinone phenols, normally
do contain glycosides, so
they are nicknamed anthraquinone glycosides. Alcohol glycosides have
been used as antirheumatics and analgesics. Salicin, from Salix spp., is
the glycosidic precursor to what is transformed to salicylic acid in our
bodies. Salicylic acid is an anodyne: Ultimately, salicylic acid was
synthesized to become today's aspirin. Glycosides are soluble in
alcohol and water.

Known primarily for their laxative actions, anthraquinone glycosides
were found after the aglycones (a non-sugar component) of
anthraquinones had been obtained upon hydrolysis. Both glycones and
aglycones of anthracene derivation are polyphenols containing the red or
purple pigment found in senna, cascara, rheum, and aloe, for example.

Flavonoid glycosides are yellow pigments in flowers and plants which
have demonstrated
antiinflammatory, anti-allergic effects, antithrombotic and vasoprotective
properties. These plant
constituents exert antioxidant effects on free radicals in the body.
Related to flavonoid glycosides
are the anthocyanidins and anthocyanins, mentioned under the phenol
heading.

Lactone glycosides, a.k.a. Coumarin glycosides are very fragrant: they
are the source, for instance, of freshly-mown hay scents (ibid.).
Medicinally, coumarin glycosides have been shown to have hemorrhagic,
antifungicidal, and antitumor activities. The lactone glycoside dicumarol is
known as an anticoagulant.

Cardiac glycosides, come from triterpenoid groups and their action on the
heart is still under
investigation. It is known, however, that the cardiac glycosides do exert
a specific action on the
myocardial muscle and allay myocardial infarction. Digitalis, from the
foxglove plant, is an allopathic prescription. (Planta Medica, 1993, 539.)

Cyanogenic glycosides, which initially contain hydrogen cyanide (HCN)
compounds, are toxic to
unadapted farm animals and humans. However, some have been found
to be of cytotoxic interest in cancer research. Originally, these
glycosides were probably developed so that a plant could defend itself
from herbivores. The cyanide content, referred to as a bound toxin, only
occurs in some of the 1000 or so plants which initially produce
cyanohydrin upon hydrolysis (Harborne and Baxter, 84). Detection of the
presence of cyanide is accomplished through smell or by its yellow to
brownish-red reaction with moist picrate paper. Prunasin, to illustrate, is
a cyanogenic glycoside occurring in Wild Cherry Bark, a botanical which
has been used since the late 1700's as a cough sedative and medicinal
flavorant (Evans, 538).

From: Turiyan gold
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997

>If someone could post the ingredients to the linament we could
>perhaps figure out an answer to the original question.


(Aster tataricua L.)
(Autumn lucoctonum L.)
(Pinellia tuberifera Ten)
(Fossil of Dinosaur bone)
(Zanthoxylum bungeanum)
(Thunbergia grandiflora Roxb.)
(Pumic)
(Chinensis G. Dom.)
(Selinum japonicum Miq.)
(Corrusive iron-pin)
(Arisaema amurense Maxim)
(Black Vinegar)
(Salt)
(Lycinm Chinense Mill)
(Aconitum carmichaeli)
(Aconitum Kusnezoffii)
(Brimstone)
(Stemona japonica)
(Verairum Nigrum L.)

An eclectic mixture of herbs. A very old formula. Even some of the latin
names have changed.

I took out preparation and quantity information.


Turiyan gold

From: Greg
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997

Gilbert Wrote: (to Greg)

> ...Somewhere back in the archives there
> is a discussion about "mineral vinegar" that is essentially an antimony
> vinegar prepared with distilled vinegar rather than water.

Does anybody remember where this is or have a copy they could post me?

> This is circulated over powdered glass of antimony; the solution, if
> properly prepared, should become blood red rather than a pissy yellow.

I was probably a little brief in my post and not specific enough about the
exact details of the process I was taught. It seems I have possibly
presented the wrong message to you Gilbert. (I will have to check just what
I did write). The final remedy is blood-red yes, 'just like the Balm of
antimony' Baslius speaks of (or did I already mention that earlier?)

> Properly prepared wine spirits (as described in the Last Testament) are
> ciculated at low temperature over the powder until the the reflux in the
> bulb goes from straight lines to light diffracting droplets. The extract is
> distilled than purified by sublimation. Not a work for amateurs.

Yes I am quite familiar with the process you are describing and have been
working withsimilar approaches for eight years now.

Regards

Greg

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997
From: Gilbert Arnold


Turiyan gold wrote;

>If someone could post the ingredients to the linament we could
>perhaps figure out an answer to the original question."

I found this on a website;

"Vinegar based liniments are good to reduce swelling and inflammation but prolonged use makes the bones brittle and so they should not be used for sustained training like Iron Palm. They are also prepared by soaking herbs in the base.
The Conventional Chinese Medical Prescription of the Shaolin Monastary for Iron Sand Palm

Zi Wan (Aster tataricua L.) 30g
Lang Du (Autumn lucoctonum L.) 30g
Ban Xia (Pinellia tuberifera Ten) 30g
Long Gu (Fossil of Dinosaur bone) 30g
Hua Jiao (Zanthoxylum bungeanum) 30g
Tang Gu Xiao (Thunbergia grandiflora Roxb.) 30g
Hai Shi (Pumic) 30g
Di Ding (Chinensis G. Dom.) 30g
She Chuang Zi (Selinum japonicum Miq.) 30g
Shan Xiao Ding (Corrusive iron-pin) 100g
Nan Sing (Arisaema amurense Maxim) 30g
He Tsu (Black Vinegar) 5000g
San Yim (Salt) 30g
Di Gu Pi (Lycinm Chinense Mill) 30g
Chuan Wu (Aconitum carmichaeli) 30g
Chao Wu (Aconitum Kusnezoffii) 30g
Lau Wong (Brimstone) 30g
Bai Bu (Stemona japonica) 30g
Li Lo (Verairum Nigrum L.) 30g

� For external use only.
� Before using, boil for 15 minutes. Allow mixture to warm, then put hands inside until the mixture becomes cold. Do not wash hands for an hour.
� Reboil for subsequent uses."

I found the site that has this formula; http://users.aol.com/beishaolin/TieDaJiu.txt. According to the information on the site it would appear that it is a Shaolin formula that helps with "Iron Palm" training. About 500 grams of ingrdients cooked in about 5 liters of "black vinegar. I'm more than willing to try and be helpfull but is there any particular reason why this information is required ? If it is for "Iron Palm", I would suggest that a teacher of this art be consulted on the use of the linament. Some of the "Shaolin" formulas are very powerfull and not to be trifled with.

Offhand I would think that the alcool would not dissolve much of the "dragon bone" or the Iron oxide. Aconitums usually require water alcool and glycerine to dissolve their active ingredients.

Blessings,

Gilbert

From: Turiyan gold
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997


>for "Iron Palm", I would suggest that a teacher of this art be consulted on
>the use of the linament. Some of the "Shaolin" formulas are very powerfull
>and not to be trifled with.

Problem is. Everyone says not to use it because its been shown to make the
bone brittle. That was kinda my reason for starting this thread...

Turiyan gold