125. Anyone ignorant of the mysteries of heaven finds it impossible to believe that anyone can see worlds so remote, and report anything about them learned by the experience of the senses. But he should know that the spaces and distances, and therefore movements, to be found in the natural world are in their origin and first cause changes of state in interiors, and it is these which determine the appearance of space and distance for angels and spirits.# Passing from one state to another gives them the appearance of passing from one place to another, and from one world to another, even to worlds on the edge of the universe. The same thing can happen to a person's spirit, while his body still remains fixed in its position. This is what happened to me, since by the Lord's Divine mercy I was allowed to associate with spirits as a spirit and at the same time with men as a man. Anyone who relies on his senses cannot understand how a person can travel in spirit, since he is restricted to time and space and measures his movements in those terms. # Motion, progress and change of place in the next life are changes in the state of inner life; they still appear as real to spirits and angels as if they were actually taking place (AC 1273-7, 1377, 3356, 5605, 10734).