125. He who does not know the arcana of heaven, cannot believe that a man can see earths so distant, and relate anything about them from the experiences of the senses. But let him know that the spaces and distances, and thence the progressions in the natural world, are, in their origin and first cause, changes of the state of the interiors, and with angels and spirits appear according to these changes;# and that thus they can by these changes be apparently transferred from one place to another, and from one earth to another, even to the earths which are at the end of the universe. So also may a man be transferred as to his spirit, his body still remaining in its place. Thus it has been done with me, since by the Divine mercy of the Lord it has been given me to have interaction with spirits as a spirit, and at the same time with men as a man. That a man can be so transferred as to his spirit, the sensual man cannot understand, since he is in space and time, and measures his movements according to them. # Movements, progressions, and changes of place in the other life are changes of state of the interiors of the life, and still they appear to spirits and angels as real changes of place (n. 1273-1277, 1377, 3356, 5605, 10,734).