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Alchemy Forum 0301-0350From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 301-350.Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive. Sun Feb 25 15:45:23 1996 Subject: 0301 FRENCH: cr�er un serveur fran�ais Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 22:39:10 +0100 From: chaslin Chres fr�res d'H�liopolis, Je ne sais combien vous �tes, �tudiants, curieux, adeptes peut-�tre � rechercher sur l'Internet _cr�e au fond pour des chercheurs, � l'origine, dont les plus tenaces, humbles et patients d'entre nous m�ritent bien le qualificatif_ quelque lumi�re, justification, ou juste le r�confort, aux moments, bien r�guliers et intenses, o� viennent les doutes et le d�couragement, ou bien ces instants o�, pour se d�lasser sans d�tendre l'arc de la concentration, l'on vient observer les cheminements des autres. On peut critiquer la science moderne et certaines de ses �manations malsaines, en tout cas on ne peut que louer le principe de l'Internet. De tous temps les grands Adeptes ont cherch� � communiquer leur savoir, m�me parfois � des m�cr�ants , pour entretenir l'id�e que notre Art n'est point une chim�re. Il serait bon que les fr�res fran�ais, dont la contribution historique est immmense et ind�niable, et dont l'activit� est toujours soutenue, se retrouvent, en compl�ment de ce site si bien document�, sur un terrain plus familier, compte tenu premi�rement des difficult�s CABBALISITIQUES suppl�m�ntaires impos�es par la traduction anglaise, d'autre part pour pouvoir se retrouver physiquement plus ais�ment, dans le cas o� une collaboration pratique serait envisag�e. C'est pourquoi nous �tudions la possibilit� d'ouvrir un site Web fran�ais d�di� � l'alchimie, sous la direction d'un Adepte tr�s �rudit, dont le r�le se bornerait toutefois � concentrer les informations et � guider ceux des �tudiants qui se montreraient � la fois les plus sinc�res et les plus d�ireux de s'informer. A la mani�re du serveur de Mr McLean, ce site fran�ais serait une collecte d'�l�ments Bilbliographiques en langue fran�aise toutefois, et de travaux pratiques, ce que n'assure pas encore le site �cossais, avec �ventuellement un forum. Il nous faut pour cela connaitre le potentiel humain pr�sent sur les r�saux. Si donc vous pourriez �tre int�ress�(e) par une telle cr�ation, envoyez un simple courrier � Monsieur Luca Finnel, � l'adresse E-mail: [email protected] Bien � vous tous, Luca Finnel Sun Feb 25 15:45:31 1996 Subject: 0302 Alchemy and Christianity From: Clinton R. Armitage Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 21:55:50 -0500 A friend, who was publicly known as a conscious medium and whom I knew to be an adept was asked to give a talk to some people who ,individually, were acclaimed as proficient in the realm of the paranormal-i.e. seeing auras, burning holes through walls, trance mediumship and that sort of thing. The subject matter of the talk was to be of his own choice. The sponsor of the meeting was a socially prominent lady who personally knew him. After a brief introduction my friend sat in a chair facing the group and smoked a corncob pipe containing ordinary smoking tobacco. For a period of two hours there was complete silence, for the most part, with an occasional utterance of one of the following words/phrases--God is Love, the Living Christ and Love. When my friend ended the session one young lady looked at her watch and exclaimed - Impossible! It had seemed like only minutes. An older man who exhibited a personality trait in the realm of positivity which others found annoying asked him in a rather affronted stance why he had said such and such ( it seemed to be exactly what the older man needed to know). The others quickly responded that my friend did not say that nor anything like it. The man stared in utter disbelief. Another lady asked about the beam of green light she saw coming in through the window. He pointed to the oak tree and said that he had asked the tree for energy whereupon several of the ladies verbally attacked the lady --who presumably could burn holes through walls --for attempting to disrupt the meeting with her negativity. The sponsor apologized for having invited the lady in the first place. It also turned out that whenever my friend later saw this lady ( the hole burner ) the expression of guilt coupled with hatred lingered and she always insisted on being the one to deliver the invocation at subsequent meetings. Such is the price of adeptship in the outer world. What does this have to do with Alchemy? Perhaps some things are happening when the dedicated alchemist looks into his crucible that most of us know not of? All is Energy. Energy always exists, it simply changes form. Alchemy and Christianity? The greatest mystery of all time- How the Christ resides within the heart. Sun Feb 25 15:45:41 1996 Subject: 0303 Stone to Stone From: Michel Martineau Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 15:12:54 -0500 At 10:46 AM 2/24/96 +0000, you wrote: >From: Petra Gottlieb >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:38:54 +1100 > > >Dear Lapis (Beat Kummenacher), > >In full admiration I read your last post. I was intrigued and felt teased >and very annoyed because I still wasn't able to put my hands on the matters. >Before your time I once sang to the forum a German song straight out of >Goethe's Faust I, Gretchen's prison song, which I translated in this manner: > >My mother, the slut (Morality corrupted into Immorality) >who murdered me, >My father, the villian (Intellect gone astray in misconceptions, >misinterpretations, and conceipt) >who devoured me! >My sister, the "little" one (the "big" one has yet to be borne) >picked up the bones (that which remains after the carnibal feast) >at a cool surrounding. (grave, underground) >Then I became a beautiful little forrest bird; (Spirit) >Fly away! Fly away! (volatile substance without body) > >And then I said: There you have your "prima materia", and that this concept >reminded me of a "Russian Doll" . If you take off the first (outer) layer, >in the above case because of corruption, you find there is another inside, >and on opening that one, there is another, and another...until you come to >the core, which is the "real" human being (potentially and in desperate need >of development and re-generation). When I discover an ego in myself, I see another one, and another one, the observer observe the observer, etc Mon Feb 26 09:12:57 1996 Subject: 0304 friars From: WTHEISEN Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:32:51 -0600 (CST) Dear Anastasy, Can you tell me what it was precisely about the spirituality of the friars that appealed to the merchants? I think that the "involvement" of Albert and Thomas with alchemy is problematical according to those who have studied the texts attributed to them. Both of course talked about alchemy, but did they get beyond that? Mon Feb 26 09:13:08 1996 Subject: 0305 FRENCH: cr�er un serveur From: Michel Martineau Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:03:24 -0500 SALUT LUCA FINNEL, on peut parler ou discuter en attendant de cr�er un site. Michel Martineau [email protected] Mon Feb 26 09:13:18 1996 Subject: 0306 David Hudsons White Powder Gold Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 22:55 MST From: simeon 2/25/96 In response to the many requests I saw on the forum under this topic heading. There is an excellent location with 12 pages of David Hudsons story at http://www.teleport.com/~boydroid/gold.htm This document has some of the scientific info associated with David Hudsons work also. I know there is another site with about 33 pages of info but have not been able to locate it at this point. On another note for anyone interested: We are operating the 'Crest in the Stone' Sacred Inner Mystery School out of Crestone, Colorado. We have been in contact with the Choctaw Native American woman 'Nellie' who owns the land that the naturally occuring 'Prima Matra' substance is being taken from, as well as many of the other main 'players' in this scenario. We currently have small quantities available to true spiritual seekers. There are six different colors, two herbs (the ones that healed the HIV patient) and another herbal preparation called 'Blue Water' available. There are several people marketing the powders under a couple different names such as Etherium and Isis White Powder Gold. We have recently produced a newsletter called 'Etherium News', to be changed to Prima Matra news (we found out that the name Etherium was a registered trade name, and wish to remain in as neutral a position as possible) with the next issue. We intend to bring both spiritual and scientific information together in the newsletter to keep those interested in these Prima Matra powders informed of the latest information. The newsletter will not accept any paid advertising, nor product pricing information, but invites anyone who has developed new techniques, products or uses for these substances to submit written articles for others to benefit by. We can not offer any direct remuneration for the articles, but will extend a subscription to the contributors and allow them to place information for the readers on how to access further info on their products / services with the article. The newsletter is available for $13.00 per year and will come out quarterly. Further information on how to contact us will follow. We also are producing a Sacred 'Doctrine of Inner Mysteries' called Temple Doors available quarterly for $28.00 per year. This publication dates back to 1980 when it was called 'Source'. The main energy involved in the information presented comes from Thoth Hermes Trismesgistus, otherwise known as Tehuti. Maia Shamayyim, the founder of the Mystery School (formerly Star of Isis) has been source translating (similar to channeling, but with some profound differences) for 27 years. Tehuti was ans is a Master Physician, Architect and Alchemist. He has given us a considerable, and ever expanding body of information regarding the Prima Matra, both David Hudsons 'Orme' and the naturally occuring 'Etherium'. Much of this information (primarily on the Etherium in the)appears in an article that appeared in 'Temple Doors' 3/4-'95 issue, a double issue as we were only producing 2 per year the last few years (now quarterly as previously stated). This is an 18 page article in a 69 page publication available for $14.00. There are other types of 'Prima Matra' on the planet also. The Amrit Kalash that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi distributes to his disciples is also a form of the Prima Matra. According to Tehuti, Prima Matra is a form of the first unviolate matter. When this creation began to condense from a purely spiritual raelity into a more physical form, the first matter that formed was unviolated by human thought and emotion (lower forms) and was the true Prima Matra. These substances are an octave of that original substance. The naturally occuring form has an etheric molecule, called iropiya by Tehuti, which he has said is probably not detectable by the current scientific community. the main difference between the manufactured substance that david Hudson has developed and the naturally occuring powders (there are sites now producing in Utah also) is the etheric molecule. In the case of Orme, there is a much greater content of the iridium and rhodium etc. than in the naturally occuring powders. Tehuti has stated that the small quantities of rhodium and iridium in the natural powders is in the exact proportion necessary in order to create the 'bridge' between the physical body and the etheric molecule, whereas the Orme is using the higher content of the rhodium and iridium as its main 'light' transducer directly. The Orme is working on more the electromagnetic level of reality, with the natural powders working more etherically in their focus. Tehuti has stated that a combination of both would be rather powerful for many. We welcome comment and further inquiry. We have a Introduction & Catalog which lists all publications/ tapes and services available for a requested $5.00 donation to offset our expenses. We can be reached through this forum for those who have other info to share with the forum, or at the following: Johannine Grove ~ P.O 235 ~ Crestone, CO 81131 (719) 256-4057 e-mail [email protected] Mon Feb 26 09:17:21 1996 Subject: 0307 Dave Hudson forum There is now an E-mail forum dedicated to wxploring the work and ideas of Dave Hudson and the white powder gold. Persons wishing to subscribe, should email [email protected]. The word subscribe should appear both in the Subject and Body fields of the post. To receive a FAQ, without subscribing, send email to: [email protected]. Adam McLean Mon Feb 26 19:08:10 1996 Subject: 0308 menstruum = solvent? Date: 26 Feb 96 06:28:58 EST From: MARVIN LOWES On Mon, 19 Feb 96 at 11:37 Rob Brezsny enquired: >>Can anyone provide references from medieval and Renaissance >>texts wherein the solvent is referred to as "menstruum"? I know there are members of the list better qualified and located to answer this question, but failing other replies I can provide one or two leads and comments from my Oxford English Dictionary! "The development in medeival Latin of this sense is to be explained by the fact that in alchemy the base metal undergoing trasmulation to gold was compared to the seed within the womb, undergoing development by the agency of menstrual blood." 1471 RIPLEY Complete Alchemy. "For invysible, ys truely thys Meustruall." 1477 NORTON Ordinary Alchemy. "The seminall seed Masculine, Hath wroght and won the Victory, Upon the menstrualls worthily." Interestingly enough, this concept must have been well established as it seems to have devolved into the use of menstrum as a general solvent. Thus in the 17th century you have BACON 1626 Art. Enq. Metals: "We are to enquire what is the propoer menstrum to disolve any metal." and from one of the most imaginative and powerful 17th century authors BROWNE 1646 Pseud Ep. "Powerful menstrumms are made for its emolition." This developes into CHESSELDON 1713: Anatomy "Out digestion is performed by a Menstrum which is cheifly saliva." and finally to - I know everyone will enjoy this subtle shift - W. LEWIS 1763 Com. Phil. Tec. "The most effective menstrum of gold is called aqua regia." Well, not finally. By the end of the 19th century, The London Illustrated News (26 April, 1890) can write "Paradoxes are the menstrums of friendship, they disintegrate regard." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Tony Lowes @ the south west of Ireland. Tel: *353 27 73025 Fax *353 27 73131 e-mail [email protected] It is what human beings say that is true and false. They agree in the language they use. This is not agreement in opinions but in forms of life. (Ludwig Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations) %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Mon Feb 26 21:24:23 1996 Subject: 0309 alchemy and christianity From: George Randall Leake III Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:52:39 -0600 >From: WTHEISEN [edited for brevity] >I DOUBT VERY MUCH WHETHER THERE ARE ANY RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES TODAY >THAT ARE ENGAGED IN ALCHEMY. ***was this ever the question? >DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANY DECREES THAT CONDEMN ALCHEMY FOR ANY OTHER >REASONS? *the British Parliament banned it, specifically manufacturing gold by means of alchemy, in I think the 14-15th Century, because they didn't want the Crown to become independent of Parliament's purse strings; at this time the King had employed a number of alchemists (obviously he had taken Alchemy completely literally) -G.Leake, 512-471-9117 [email protected] "To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child." -Cicero "Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!" -Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire Mon Feb 26 21:24:30 1996 Subject: 0310 apothecaries and crocodiles From: Jane E. Jenkins Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:16:00 -0600 (CST) To Alchemy Forum members, Could anyone provide any information about the significance of stuffed crocodiles (or alligators?) hanging in apothecary shops. I've seen several pictures showing this, including the image of a 16th c. alchemical lab, posted in the virtual alchemy library. Are there any references I could look at for more information about this? Thanks. J.E. Jenkins [email protected] Mon Feb 26 21:24:42 1996 Subject: 0311 David Hudsons White Powder Gold From: Barry Carter Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:07:46 +0000 simeon writes on 2/25/96: > In response to the many requests I saw on the forum under this topic > heading. There is an excellent location with 12 pages of David Hudsons story > at http://www.teleport.com/~boydroid/gold.htm This document has some of > the scientific info associated with David Hudsons work also. I know there is > another site with about 33 pages of info but have not been able to locate it > at this point. In a posting to the White Gold forum on the same date Joe Champion said: I will be posting a copy of David's Hudson patent in entirety (including drawings) this week at:http://www.netzone.com/~discpub Also, I have posted a copy of one of his Dallas lectures at the above site. Do not construe this as advertisement, only the sharing of knowledge. Joe Champion email [email protected] http://www.netzone.com/~discpub Here is how to join the White Gold forum. Reply to: [email protected] zz.com originates in White To Join: [email protected] Fort Lauderdale FL USA Gold To Leave: [email protected] via midnight!east BBS Forum Moderator: [email protected] sysadmin: [email protected] (c)1996 > the main difference between the manufactured substance that david > Hudson has developed and the naturally occuring powders (there are sites now > producing in Utah also) is the etheric molecule. In the case of Orme, there > is a much greater content of the iridium and rhodium etc. than in the > naturally occuring powders. Tehuti has stated that the small quantities of > rhodium and iridium in the natural powders is in the exact proportion > necessary in order to create the 'bridge' between the physical body and the > etheric molecule, whereas the Orme is using the higher content of the > rhodium and iridium as its main 'light' transducer directly. The Orme is > working on more the electromagnetic level of reality, with the natural > powders working more etherically in their focus. Tehuti has stated that a > combination of both would be rather powerful for many. According to Hudson, the materials from the Choctaw Native American woman Nellie's land contain very little or no monoatomic rhodium or iridium. I understand that these results were confirmed by people other than Hudson. I am suspicious of channelled information that is vague and unverifiable or that contains predictions after the fact. Barry Carter Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance Voice 541-523-3357 Fax 541-523-9438 The road to hell is paved with good inventions. Tue Feb 27 09:22:21 1996 Subject: 0312 A Lighter Moment From: RJB Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Thanks for the reply to my question about the authorship of the _Kybalion_. This means that any resemblances between the _Kybalion_ and GD material are purely non-coincidental? LeGrand Cinq-Mars [email protected] Tue Feb 27 09:26:26 1996 Subject: 0313 Goethe and the Stone From: Beat Krummenacher Date: 26 Feb 96 19:32:15 EST Dear Petra, Goethe fell ill in September 1768, as he had returned home from Leipzig. His condition visibly aggravated. Soon it seemed, that the young life would find a sudden end. Goethe was then 19 years old. However then an event happened, which has fundamentally stamped the whole life of Goethe. Let us hear Goethe himselve (taken out of "poetry and truth"): " Still a very hard test was meanwhile prepared for me: For a disturbed and one might well say, for certain moments destroying digestion produced such symptoms, that I believed to lose my life under large worries, and no applied medicines further something wanted to be of use. In these last troubles my pressed mother forced the embarrassed doctor with the largest impetuosity, to pull out his universal medicine. After long resistance he hurried home deeply in the night and came back with a glass of crystalized dry salt, which was dissolved in water and was swallowed by the patient, and which had a decided alkaline taste. The salt was hardly taken, so a relief of the condition showed itself, and from the moment the disease took a turn, which gradually led to improvement. I may not say, however this strengthened and increased the belief in our doctor and the industry to make us blessed of a such treasure." That doctor had the reputation to have been an alchemist. Whether the medicine has been the tincture or only a particular is unimportant. Significant for the whole occident was, that owing to the universal medicine of this alchemist Goethe survived and could exercise his large influence on the development of whole Europe. It little astonishes, that Goethe was deeply impressed through this experience. Subsequently he began to engage himself especially with two alchemical writings in detail. He studied the "Aurea Catena Homeri" - in the English known under the title "The golden Chain of Homer" by Anton Joseph Kirchweger and "Opus magocabbalisticum et theosophicum" by Georg von Welling. These alchemical works moved Goethe to begin also practical experiments in the cement floor of his apartment house. He tried one and a half year to find the philosopher's stone, until he unsuccessfully interrupted all practical experiments. However the world view of the alchemists engaged him all his life. The seed of the alchemical thinking had been deeply put into the soul of Goethe. Ripened it led to composing his "Faust". If one wants to understand the content of Goethes "Faust" and properly point it, one must read the both mentioned alchemical writings. Goethe was however no genuine alchemist, since he had practically unsuccessfully worked and given up soon all his practical experiments. Goethes "Faust" belongs to the world literature. As alchemical book it is at most interesting from the philosophical point of view. It brings nothing the practitioner! For generally counts: Only who knows through own experience, can put others on the right track. Thus also it is idly to speculate on it, which person in Goethes poetry is to be identified with which prima materia or which of the four elements. Since Goethe did not personally know it, everything remains in the haze of poetic imagination... Best regards Beat [email protected] Tue Feb 27 10:44:08 1996 Subject: 0314 A Lighter Moment From: Art Kunkin Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:25:55 -0800 (PST) >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:51:41 -0700 (PDT) >From: LeGrand Cinq-Mars > > >This is a bit of a digression -- but I have heard that Paul Case >was one of the auhtors of the Kybalion; now Pat Zalewski says that >all three were expelled by Moina Mathers. Who were the other two? >Is there any good material available on the authorship and background >of the _Kybalion_? > The three anonymous authors of the Kyballion are: Paul Case (founder of the Brotherhood of the Adytum BOTA), Marie Corelli (author of many metaphysical novels), and William Walker Atkinson, much published New Thought editor (who also wrote many books under the name of Yogi Ramacharaka). Cordially, Art Kunkin. Art Kunkin Publisher and Editor, World Wide Free Press URL: http://www.wwfreepress.com/ Voice: 310-455-2451 E-Mail: [email protected] Snail Mail: 115 S. Topanga Canyon Blvd, Suite #166 Tue Feb 27 16:10:11 1996 Subject: 0315 Goethe and the Stone From: John Obrien Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:13:33 -0600 (CST) > > From: Beat Krummenacher >apartment house. He tried one and a half year to find the philosopher's stone, >until he unsuccessfully interrupted all practical experiments.However the world >view of the alchemists engaged him all his life. The seed of the alchemical >thinking had been deeply put into the soul of Goethe. Ripened it led to >composing his "Faust". > Good story; I think it helps point out that studying and attempting the Alchemical process(es) can be a life changing experience. Not only that but, there is not just one path to creating "Gold". -- ,o888b,`?~~~~~ ~~~~~P',d888o, ,8888 888 ?~~~ John D. O'Brien [email protected] ~~~P 888 8888, 8888888P' ~~~ ~~~ ?8888888 888P' ~~~ "When all the World recognizes ~~~ `?888 `88 O d~~~ good as good, This in itself ~~~b O 88' `?._ _.o~~~~~ is Evil." Lao Tsu ~~~~~o._ _.P' Tue Feb 27 17:29:55 1996 Subject: 0316 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: Bill Bunn Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:48:22 -0500 Hello there. Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's book -- Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her successfully? I'm also looking for some biographical material about her and her times. If anyone is aware of these kinds of sources please let me know. I would be extremely grateful. Bill Bunn <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bill, Linda, and Ezra Bunn Banjo Bob and Mussy all live at [email protected] Tue Feb 27 17:40:18 1996 Subject: 0317 Margaret South Atwood's Text >Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's book -- >Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her successfully? Not at all. Many copies seem to have survived. I myself have seen three copies. It was reprinted early in the 20th century and again issued a decade or so ago by Yogi Publications Society (as I recall). I am sure Kessinger publications currently has a photocopy reprint. A colleague I met through the alchemy web site has begun scanning this work and it will eventually be made available on the alchemy web site. The myth of M.A. Atwood and her father is explored in an imaginative way in a recent novel The Chymical Wedding by Lindsay Clark (Jonathan Cape, 1989). Another important writer from the same period is E.A. Hitchcock. Has anyone transcribed his alchemical writings? I would like to make these available on the Web. With my best wishes, Adam McLean Tue Feb 27 22:44:29 1996 Subject: 0318 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium From: [email protected] Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:51:12 -0500 On Feb 26, 1996, George Leake wrote in response: >>>DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANY DECREES THAT CONDEMN ALCHEMY FOR ANY OTHER>REASONS? *the British Parliament banned it, specifically manufacturing gold by means of alchemy, in I think the 14-15th Century, because they didn't want the Crown to become independent of Parliament's purse strings; at this time the King had employed a number of alchemists (obviously he had taken Alchemy completely literally)<< What this thread brings up is another leading idea in alchemy, namely the theme of the "mysterium" (cf., the thread on "locating the prima materia" for another leading idea in alchemy). In its common use the word mysterium usually refers to something like an organization, a secret society, or cult, such as the Eleusinian Mysteries or Mithraic Mysteries, which we hardly know anything about what took place there. Waite investigated theme this in his book the *Secret Tradition in Alchemy* and came to the conclusion that no such cult celebrating mysteries existed in alchemy. A secret organization did exist, the 17th century Rosicrucians, and many later alchemists seemed to belong to this society. This secret order continued to exist and certain remnants still exist, i.e., the secretiveness still goes on, however, I don't want to enter into this aspect here. Agrippa has an interesting passage in this regard in his learned book, "On the uncertainty and vanity of all the sciences and arts" (1653). In this book he devotes a section to alchemy where he says: "I could therefore say a great deal about this art (which is not so very hateful to me) if no vow of silence existed (those who are initiated into the mysteries take this vow). Beyond this, this vow has been so constantly and religiously kept by the old philosophers and authors, that no philosopher of recognized authority and no reliable author has ever referred to it (the secret) with a single word." Agrippa speaks of a vow of silence and says no alchemistic author ever mentions the secret. Agrippa was a Humanist and a skeptic when it came to the sciences, so his remark about alchemy, that he could say a lot and that he doesn't hate it, means that he was an admirer of the art. One can conclude that he means what he says, and that he was hindered by a vow of silence. This was before the days of the Rosicrucians, so it was not a matter of that society. This strange remark may refer to some kind of organized mystery in alchemy, but if so we have no idea of what it consisted. Typically, the mysterium was usually designated as the lapis philosophorum, the central secret of alchemy is the mystery of the stone. I don't want to enter into this aspect of the discussion right now and what the old masters have to say about this, but want to stay with the central theme of the "mysterium" as present in medieval alchemy, either in the sense of a secret or as some kind of unknown ritual. We are all well aware that there is a tremendous secret about the whole enterprise. The old authors repeat this again and again - that the matter is a mystery and must be concealed. Unless we are ready to concede that for nearly nineteen centuries alchemy was a gigantic hoax, we are bound to conclude that that there really was something about alchemy which struck the old masters as very mysterious or else that there was a grim outer necessity to make a mystery of it. If we think ourselves back into the psychology of the Middle Ages, it may not be impossible to understand why such secretiveness existed. One of the reasons undoubtably can be found in the persecution of heretics. The following addition is not to detract from George Leake's response which engages the issue of the condemnation of alchemy from a different perspective. What follows are some passages from the regulations for the treatment of heretics from which you can see some of the difficulties with which the alchemists had to contend. The first is from the "Regulations of the Synod of Toulouse, in the Year 1229." This Synod passed laws which remained valid for the persecution of heretics throughout the Middle Ages. It says: "1. In every parish, inside as well as outside the city, the Bishops must appoint one priest and two, three or more laymen of good repute, and if necessary bind them by oath, to search diligently, faithfully and frequently for heretics in these parishes; and to examine individually suspicious houses, underground cellars, annexes, and other hidden corners, which must all be destroyed. If they discover any heretics, credentes (those who believe in heretics), patrons or protectors of heretics, they must (taking every precaution that the heretics may not escape) immediately denounce them to the Bishop, or to the Lord of that place, or his baliffs, in order that they may be suitably punished. 2. The exempted Abbots, who are not under episcopal jurisdiction, must do the same (as the Bishops) in their districts. 3. The Lords of the various districts must have the estates, houses and woods diligently searched for heretics, and must destroy their hiding places. 4. In the future he who harbors a heretic in his territory, whether for money or for any other reason, will lose his possessions for ever (whether he pleads guilty or is convicted) and his body will be delivered to his supporters for suitable punishment. 5. But he also, whose territory has become (even without his knowledge but through his carelessness) a frequent refuge for heretics, will be liable to the punishment of the law. 6. The house, in which one has found a heretic, must be torn down, and the place or ground must be confiscated. 7. The baliff, who lives in a suspicious place and is not diligent in searching for heretics, shall lose his post and may not be installed elsewhere. 8. But in order that innocent persons may not be punished and that no one shall be wrongfully accused, we decree that no heretic or credens shall be punished, until the Bishop, or other authorized clerical person, has declared him to be a heretic or credens. 9. Every one is permitted to search for heretics in the territory of another, and the baliffs of the place in question must give him every assistance. So the King may search for heretics in the domain of the Court of Toulouse and vice versa. 10. When a _haereticus vestitus_ (a clerical heretic) voluntarily renounces his heresy, he may not remain on the estate where he lived before, if this is suspected of heresy, must be transplanted into a Catholic, wholly non suspect, estate. In addition he must wear two crosses on his clothes, one on the right and one on the left, and they must be of a different color to that of the clothes. Also such persons must not have access tp public offices or legal action, unless, after suitable penances, they are reinstated in integrum by the Pope or his legates. 11. Whoever does not return voluntarily to the Church, but only through fear of death or for some other reason, must be imprisoned by the Bishop to complete his penance and in order to prevent him from misleading others." These were the principal regulations in force in France. After the Synod in France, Frederick II, on March 5, 1232, made the following laws in Germany: "1. Everyone who is condemned by the Church as a heretic, is to be punished with death by the civil judges. 2. Those, who return to the bosom of the Church through fear of death, are to be punished with imprisonment for life. 3. All suspected persons must be kept in close custody during the investigation. 4. Supporters of heretics meet with the same punishment as the heretics themselves. 5. Heretics are to be punished in every place, also when they have left their homes. 6. Relapsing heretics are to be condemned to death without further ado. 7. Heretics, as well as their supporters, have no right of appeal or proclamation, in order that the disgrace of heresy may be removed by every means from faithful orthodox Germany. 8. The descendants and heirs of heretics, and their supporters, shall be deprived of all their worldly privileges and public honors, unto the second generation; with the exception of orthodox children who denounce their heretical parents." This represents the state of affairs in the 13th century. It was obviously very unwise in those days to give the smallest sign of having any different opinions. This explains a great deal of the secretiveness, for alchemy is, of course, full of allusions which could be interpreted in a way that might have had very disagreeable consequences for the alchemists. If they were afraid, they had good reason for their fear, and that alone must have forced them to be secretive. But under the circumstances it is astonishing that they published such books at all, they might simply have not written their treatises. There must have been a very strong emotional motive behind them, compelling them to publish these books in spite of the regulations. This very real danger makes their emphasis on Christianity understandable, and indeed the medieval books frequently contain the most orthodox confession of faith, usually at the beginning and end. It is interesting that the alchemists say themselves that they use a language intended to conceal; and, quite apart from the general fact that the mystery must be kept secret, they say the language which they use is mystical or symbolic, but this gets into another leading idea of alchemy, namely, the use of a secret language. LeGrand, and others, who have more knowledge in this area than I may wish to comment further on the role of the persecution of heretics and the secretiveness of the old alchemical masters. As always, additions and further reflections are welcome. Maury Tue Feb 27 22:45:21 1996 Subject: 0319 Margaret South Atwood's Text Date: 27 Feb 96 15:01:39 EST From: Marcus Williamson Bill, > Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's > book -- Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her > successfully? They are definitely available. I have a reprint (not to hand at present, unfortunately) which I got in a bookshop called Compendium, Camden, London. Can provide more details on the weekend - send me an e-mail if you'd like to know more. regards Marcus [email protected] http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/marcus_williamson/ Tue Feb 27 22:46:21 1996 Subject: 0320 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: Jeffrey A Steele Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 14:23 CDT Atwood's book was reprinted under the title _Hermetic Philosophy and Alchemy_. I was led to it by a member of the ARCANA discussion group recently, as I have been searching for the source of Margaret Fuller's alchemical talisman (more in this in a moment). I have the reprint on my desk in front of me. Our Rare Book collection here ar Wisconsin has a copy of the 1850 edition of _Suggestive Inquiry_' so the book is available. Fuller's talisman, printed as a frontispiece of _Woman in the Nineteenth Century_ consists of a modified seal of Solomon (a black triangle superimposed on an inverted white triagle) surrounded by a ouroboros (snake swallowing its tail) and a halo of rays. This emblem first appears in Fuller's 1844 journal, where it is accompanied by the following poem: Patient serpent, circle round, Till in death thy life is found; Double form of godly prime Holding the whole thought of time, When the perfect two embrace, Male & female, black & white, Soul is justified in space, Dark made fruitful by the light; And, centred in the diamond Sun, Time & Eternity are one. I am searching for the source of this emblem and would greatly appreciate any assistance list members could provide. Here is what I know so far: --Fuller knew Goethe's works better than anyone else in mid-nineteenth century America and was aware of the alchemical themes in his work, --she read Swwdenborg and Jakob Bohme, as well as many 19th-century mesmerists, --an emblem resembling Fuller's (but not identical) is found in Atwood's 1850 book, --the emblem of the Theosophical society is also quite similar, --some 16th and 17th-century alchemical emblems contain some of the emblems of Fuller's emblem. I am particularly interested in any information list members could provide about the state of alchemical/theosophical/occult knowledge in American between 1830 and 1845. My goal, of course, is to find the exact source (if one exists) for Fuller's design. Jeffrey Steele, [email protected] Wed Feb 28 08:53:14 1996 Subject: 0321 Toulouse (13th century) From: RJB Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Those regulations however were not simply any regulations applied to any medieval city -- Toulouse was one of the centers of the Albigensian movement (and territory, and political structure), which was in the final stages of eradication at about that time. (Toulouse was afterward directly administered from Paris.) This regulations are thus not typical regulations for any place during the 13th century, but regulations promulgated at the end of a military/political/religious campaign of reconquest. Is there any contemporary (as opposeed to modern) documentation linking the Albigensian movement with alchemy, either in the minds of Albigensians, the minds of alchemists, or the minds of political or religious opponents of the movement? LeGrand Cinq-Mars [email protected] Wed Feb 28 08:54:02 1996 Subject: 0322 apothecaries and crocodiles From: Claude Gagnon Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:38:47 -0500 (EST) Crocodiles are dragons. Dragons with wings are oftenly used as deckname in the art of painting the Great work. It also means the result of distillation (cf. Flamel's arche in Paris). Claude Gagnon Wed Feb 28 08:55:03 1996 Subject: 0323 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: RJB Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Author: Atwood, Mary A. Atwood, Mary Anne Contributors: Wilmshurst, Walter L. (Introduction by) Title: A Suggestive Inquiry into the Hermetic Mystery Edition: Reprint ed. Publisher: Ayer Company Publishers, Incorporated Year: 1976 Series: Occult Ser. Pages: 597p. ISBN/Price: 0-405-07938-9 Trade Cloth $56.95 0-911662-64-2 Trade Cloth $20.00 Author: Atwood, Mary A. Wilmshurst, Walter L. Title: Hermetic Philosophy and Alchemy Edition: Reprint ed. Publisher: A M S Press, Incorporated ISBN/Price: 0-404-18446-4 Trade Cloth $74.50 Subj (BIP): ALCHEMY. HERMETISM -- or so says US Books in Print. LeGrand Cinq-Mars [email protected] Wed Feb 28 09:02:45 1996 Subject: 0224 Goethe and the Stone From: Josh Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:25:36 -0800 Thanks for the Goethe story, Beat. I recently found a collection of short Goethe pieces (_Tales for Transformation_, City Lights Books, San Francisco, 1987). It includes a really lovely alchemical allegory ("Marchen," or "Fairy Tale") and "The New Melusina," supposed to be inspired by Paracelsus' treatise "De Pygmaeis." Nice frontispiece from Atalanta Fugiens, too. Wed Feb 28 09:02:52 1996 Subject: 0225 David Hudsons White Powder Gold From: Josh Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:25:37 -0800 Can anyone explain what it would mean for a substance to be an "octave" of another substance? And a definition of an "etheric molecule"? Thanks, /jcs >These substances are an octave of that original substance. The >naturally occuring form has an etheric molecule, called iropiya by Tehuti, >which he has said is probably not detectable by the current scientific >community.... > Tehuti has stated that the small quantities of >rhodium and iridium in the natural powders is in the exact proportion >necessary in order to create the 'bridge' between the physical body and the >etheric molecule.... Wed Feb 28 09:03:00 1996 Subject: 0326 Goethe and the Stone From: Petra Gottlieb Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:26:10 +1100 Dear Beat, LISTEN TO THE PHARMACIST SPEAKING! I must strongly object to your: >Goethe was however no genuine alchemist since he had practically unsuccessfully worked and given up soon all his practical experiments.< I wonder why? Because he did not want to get lost in sheer objectivity of his pure pounded powders. His Universal Medicine had a somewhat different manifestation and effect, it related more to Life itself as a "Whole", SUBJECT INCLUDED. That's why he "personified", and dramatised the Opus. The manifestation of his SPIRITUAL GOLD > IS HIS FAUST! AND WHAT A "UNIVERSAL MEDICINE" IT IS! "Es kann die Spur von meinen Erdentagen nicht in Aeonen untergehen." (The traces of my earthly days cannot in aeons sink into oblivion). Could you say that regarding the tinctures you are making? I had hoped you could help me in the chemistry of things, because in this field I am still a novice, but it seems I am on my own again. I still "believe " the "Chemical" Opus is hidden in the personified drama of Goethe's Faust, just like in his "Wahlverwandtschaften". Once I have reached "conviction" I will let you know. --- PETRA CHRISTIANE GOTTLIEB [email protected] OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST! (Paracelsus) WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART! Wed Feb 28 09:03:06 1996 Subject: 0327 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: [email protected] (Michael D. Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:34:01 -0800 >Fuller's talisman, printed as a frontispiece of _Woman in the Nineteenth >Century_ consists of a modified seal of Solomon (a black triangle superimposed >on an inverted white triagle) surrounded by a ouroboros (snake swallowing its >tail) and a halo of rays. This emblem first appears in Fuller's 1844 journal, >where it is accompanied by the following poem: Jeffrey, The two triangles, one black and the other white, surrounded by a circle is used also as a symbol of the Martinist Order. I'll look and see what I have and post it to you if you want. When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl." [email protected] SUN MICROsystems--MIL12-04--2550 GARCIA AVE--MOUNTAIN VIEW CA 94043-1100 It's no good, it's no good say the buyer; Then off he goes and boasts about his purchase. -- Proverbs 20:14 Wed Feb 28 09:03:19 1996 Subject: 0328 Margaret South Atwood's Text and Margaret Fuller From: Tom Willard Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:22:24 -0700 (MST) Very interesting about Fuller, who was certainly interested in transformation. I wonder whether Barret's _Celestial Intelligencer_ would have been readily available for her. There was certainly a lot of older material in Boston libraries, and I can recommend, though I haven't looked at it for many years, Leventhal's book _In the Shadow of the Enlightenment_, which traces alchemical concerns into eighteenth-century America. Tom Willard [email protected] Wed Feb 28 09:03:29 1996 Subject: 0329 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: Tom [email protected]> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:09:48 -0700 (MST) There are some interesting notes on Mary Ann South and her father in two books reviewed in the current issue of Cauda Pavonis: Studies in Hermeticism. Joscelyn Godwin's _The Theosophical Enlightenment_ (SUNY Press) Peter Washington's _Madame Blavatsky's Baboon_ (American edition, Schocken Books). Both books are indexed. Tom Willard Wed Feb 28 09:09:18 1996 Subject: 0330 Kyballion From: Petra Gottlieb Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:50:01 +1100 On behalf of Alec Gathercole >The halfwise... >We may have to go back to the beginning and check where we deviated >then prepare again for the whole journey The quotation from the misconscrewed reference to Moira Matter's removal from the Golden Dawn of Paul Case, Arthur Edward Waite, and William B Yeates is historical, the result of a power struggle with a winner and some loosers. These people were more the editors or compilers of the Kyballion rather than the authers. The caption submitted was not about good or bad Cabalah but rather about a path to go. There are many ways to do these things and plenty of tools to help us find the gracefull path. Two other excellent tools which are probably in the hands of each of us already, they are "The Book of Porverbs" and "The Book of Ecclesiastes" in the Old Testament. The caption indicates that we need Morality, Ethics, Integrity, Honour and Self Esteem in our character expressed by our Nien (way of thinking) and approach to social justice. These are better dedicines than spagyrics and chemicals and are prerequisites to Divine Instruction being made available. Fundamental Laws are an integral part of the Paracelsian University's curriculum. Alec ([email protected]) Wed Feb 28 14:55:22 1996 Subject: 0331 Hudson link - the Octave and etheric chemistry Josh Senyek writes:- >Can anyone explain what it would mean for a substance to be an "octave" of >another substance? >And a definition of an "etheric molecule"? It seems that the Dave Hudson 'White powder Gold' people are now searching out all sorts of esoteric jargon in order to give an explanation of their material. In chemistry, the Periodic Table is arranged in 'octaves', that is the chemical elements form a pattern which has an eightfold structure. Thus, taking the elements of group I, the Alkali metals, as an example - Potassium can be seen as an octave of Sodium, and Rubidium as an octave of Potassium, etc. However, this is probably not what is meant here. I think we will find that the 'etheric molecule' leads us back to the Theosophists Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater. In the early 20th century they wrote a couple of books on 'Occult chemistry', based on their clairvoyant investigations integrated with ideas from contemporary chemistry (which was at that time in a ferment due to the discovery of radioactivity and the periodic table of the elements). This remarkable book seemed to sketch a coherent view of an etheric and astral chemistry, in which the outer properties of matter were reflected in the higher planes, the etheric, astral. etc. This work was not followed up and in any case could not lead to any method of verification through experimentation, as everything rested upon Leadbeater's clairvoyance. I don't know if the Hudson people have dicovered this book, but when they do they will be especially interested in a section on the interior etheric structure of Osmium, Iridium and Platinum, containing a number of diagrams of etheric 'ovoids' and 'bars'. Interestingly Leadbeater identifies a new form of Platinum, which he calls Platinum B (and states it to be a new element!). The Dave Hudson people will be delighted with this, but one wonders what can be made of Leadbeater's work. After all, this book was written 90 years ago, and no one has ever been able to follow up its ideas. The ideas have a beautiful symmetry and coherence. Although they are a triumph of creative imagination, they cannot be investigated further. With my best wishes, Adam McLean Wed Feb 28 17:17:49 1996 Subject: 0332 Dragons...Pearls...Gnosis...Alchemy From: OISPEGGY Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:27:06 -0500 (EST) Here is a relevant crosspost from Hermetica, posted with permission of the author -- Zos. ******************************************************************** THE PEARL Of all most beautiful creations, surely the Pearl is one. It is in many ways one of the most exquisite and far-reaching symbols of Western Esotericism, aptly known in Gnostic circles long ago and still an enduring symbol of wisdom and knowledge today -- from the Greek *margarou* "pearl" as in "The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it" (Mt 13:45)...resonant with the teachings is Proverbs, where the Pearl is Wisdom, "She is more precious than jewels and nothing you desire can compare to Her" (Prov 3:15) or as Job 28:18 says, "No mention shall be made of coral or crystal, for the price of Wisdom is above [even] pearls." Yet this Wisdom, so valued above its material symbols and irreducible to them, requires caution and care for it says also, "Do not throw your peals before swine lest them trample them underfoot and turn and then, attack you!" (Mt 7:6). The Chinese know the value of Pearls. They say that the nature of pearls is a distillation of Moonlight through the magical power of the Yin principle, that which follows on Hun or Chaos, the uncreated First. In Chekiang, in the last century, they would put very small images of the Buddha inside of large mussel and oyster shells only to retrieve them later coated with "pearl essences" -- the pearl they say, is a charm against fire and over abundant Yang. The most mysterious of the pearls, according to Daoism, is the Ye Ming Zhu "Night-Shining Pearl" and one of the Eight Treasures. The Zhu, or Pearl, is intimately connected to the Dragon, representing the Pill of Immortality. Also it is a symbol of hidden and obscure genius or a frequent symbol of feminine purity and beauty. The Long Dragon is said to have 81 scales along its back, like ridges in a chain of mountains, with whiskers on each side of its mouth, a bread under its chin, in the midst of which is a bright and shining Pearl. However, it is among the Gnostics that the Pearl is seen to truly shine forth. The Pearl, in general, represents hidden and esoteric wisdom, for many of the ancient traditions at the time of early Christianity. The _Physiologus_ speaks of the "purple oyster...which comes from the bottom of the sea, opens its mouth, and drinks the dew of heaven and all the rays of sun, moon and stars, producing thus, pearls from the lights above." ... Near the shores of the Red Sea, they "stand with mouths open" and the power of lightning penetrates them and they "take fright and close up their shells, having lightning trapped inside them. That lightning wraps around the eye of the creature, making pearls out of them." Also says John of Damascus, from Mary Theotokos, "came a pearl of great price, the pearl begot by divine lightning." The Gnostic "HYMN OF THE PEARL" (from the _Acts of Thomas_ or "Song of the Apostle Judas Thomas in the Land of India") tells the story of a young man sent to Egypt from the east to fetch a pearl out of a "sea guarded by a dragon" so he might once again regain his "robes of glory." He finds an Inn by the sea of the dragon and waits for it to sleep, "a stranger among my fellow dwellers," who nevertheless dons the clothes and appearance of the Egyptians, lest they "rouse the Serpent against him." Eating at their table, he forgets his holy origins, falls under the spell of heavy food, drink and pleasures. Then, his divine parents, seeing his slumbers, sent him a Letter, a holy writ, a sacred text, calling him to remember his true mission -- the re-attainment of the robes of glory -- and this Letter came "in the form of an Eagle, king of the feathered tribes" alighting beside him and hearing its cry, he was awakened. Chanting the Name of both his Divine Father and his Holy Mother, Queen of the East, he enspelled the serpent, seized the Pearl and cast off his old garments. Turning toward home, he journeyed only part way before he was met, no longer a youth, with gifts from his parents, and he saw again the robes of glory. But these robes now as a Mirror Image -- himself in the Robe and the Robe in him, different yet the Same. "And I saw also quiver over it, the powers of the Gnosis, and saw that it was about to speak, and it murmured a song, pouring itself out toward me and ran to embrace it and clothed myself in its many colored splendors." The _Gesta Romanorum_ tells the tale of the Maiden who possessed a precious pearl who her Five Brothers (the senses) tried to steal from her through seductive talks and promises. But she refused to be lost in sensual pleasures and when the King appears, she gives him the pearl and he in turn, marries her and makes her his equal. The Pearl, as the purest and most lovely of gems, is mysterious. Appearing only in the fourth year of the oyster, they are a mix of lime carbonate and oyster gelatin, built in successive layers, symbolizing the subtle planes that coalesce and combine over time to build an outer appearance and thus hang, from the ear of an Ethiopian or a dark-eyed Houri in the Gardens of Allah as a sign of hidden mysteries. Cleopatra, it is said, swallowed her one of her immensely valuable pearl-earrings, in a golden cup of wine, claiming that it would completely dissolve and enhance her immortality. But secretly she wept, having lost her lover and a kingdom as well -- thus they say, pearls are a sign of love lost, sadness, tears on the cheeks of even the most beautiful, remembered sea-water. For pearls removed from the Ocean long to return and can be kept healthy over years only by being immersed in Mother Seas -- like the soul of all longing lovers whose hearts are said, according to the Riders of the Chariot, to each have a Spark -- the pearl of eternal life, never to be vanquished, but easily forgotten. - Z - ([email protected]) Wed Feb 28 17:20:43 1996 Subject: 0333 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: John E. Myers Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:04:26 EST5EDT >Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's book -- >Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her successfully? > >Bill Bunn My university has a copy and I have also received a copy through inter-library loan. J.E.M. / "All things come to * * [email protected] / he who waits." * * * * alt.immortal / I have time. * * * * * * * * * Wed Feb 28 19:02:20 1996 Subject: 0334 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: dafydd roberts Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:32:38 GMT It may be of interest to some that Mary Ann South features in an old issue of The Hermetic Journal [1992]-again in an article by Joscelyn Godwin, ' A Behem ist Circle in Victorian England'. dafydd roberts Wed Feb 28 20:10:42 1996 Subject: 0335 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium From: George Randall Leake III Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:04:22 -0600 >From: [email protected] wrote [edited for brevity] >What this thread brings up is ... the word mysterium usually refers to >>something like an organization, a secret society, or cult... >Agrippa speaks of a vow of silence and says no alchemistic author ever >mentions the secret. One can conclude that he means what he says, and that >he >was hindered by a vow of silence. >We are all well aware that there is a >tremendous secret about the whole enterprise. The old authors repeat this >again and again - that the matter is a mystery and must be concealed... >One of >the reasons undoubtably can be found in the persecution of >heretics. ~~~~~ *Maury is right on target I believe; I would also add that there are important differences in the climate of tolerance between the 13th and 16th centuries. By the 16th Century, Europe had suffered the plague, the threat of Sulieman and the Turks barely kept at bay at the walls of Vienna, and the constant threat of war. Also the Papacy was hardly as powerful as it once was (need I mention the events of the 1520s or the Pope at Avignon?), and one should consider the effect of the Renaissance. There was a lot more tolerance for things "pagan" (in the spirit of learning, studying the ancients was not exactly discouraged) and new ideas during the 16th century and the power of the Church was lessened somewhat (well, maybe not as much in Spain). So the lectures of Trithemius and Agrippa were in keeping with contemporary academic pursuits, at least until Agrippa pushe Sun Feb much. *Also, I would say that just because things (like harboring/supporting/tolerating "heretics") were forbidden doesn't mean that they did not happen. Look at medieaval statutes passed by the Venetian Senate against usury. The clergy's preaching finally worked, at least on paper. The anti-usury legislation was winked at but was only marginally enforced--loaners could not exceed the going interest rate nor ask for an excessive downpayment or collateral. I think hermetic pursuits were tolerated in much the same way. This is why I believe Dee survived and Bruno was burned. Wed Feb 28 22:08:43 1996 Subject: 0336 Octaves/Harmonics From: John Obrien Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:18:32 -0600 (CST) > Can anyone explain what it would mean for a substance to be an "octave" of > another substance? > >These substances are an octave of that original substance. The > >naturally occuring form has an etheric molecule, called iropiya by Tehuti, I'd venture a guess that it relates to the the way that musical notes can relate in a harmonic fashion to light waves. This was relate in an artical published by Paracelsus College in the early 80's. I can relate more detail if anyone wants it. -- ,o888b,`?~~~~~ ~~~~~P',d888o, ,8888 888 ?~~~ John D. O'Brien [email protected] ~~~P 888 8888, 8888888P' ~~~ ~~~ ?8888888 888P' ~~~ "When all the World recognizes ~~~ `?888 `88 O d~~~ good as good, This in itself ~~~b O 88' `?._ _.o~~~~~ is Evil." Lao Tsu ~~~~~o._ _.P' Thu Feb 29 08:54:59 1996 Subject: 0337 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium From: Jon Marshall Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:15:40 -0800 Ok firstly i agree with RJB about Toulouse and the albigensians- this a particular moment in history- at this time the church tended to attack movements of heretics not individuals. if alchemy was considered as heresy and this was a threat, then why did alchemists attribute their texts to heretics or those of doubtful faith? I'd have thought that if the local troops burst open my doors then i might have just that little extra leighway if i was reading "St.Dominic on the Philosophers stone" or "St. augustine on furnaces" rather than by digging an extra pit for myself by reading texts attributed to Geber or Lull.... If alchemy was banned by the church for reasons of faith before the reformation (not after when, as i wrote earlier, paracelsus was put on the index, and van helmont imprisoned by the inquisition) then where is this ban written down? Medieval theologians wrote on everything at length, the documents of the church are generally NOT vague. From the late 1400's tomes on witchraft and heresey were written by the hundreds (this is when the *malleus* came out)- do these discuss alchemy? (in the late 1500s, post reformation, yes) if not why not? if they only discuss alchemy as fraud or bad for currency, then that is also a point. Please note i have no brief for the church here, but i just want to know of the evidence for the position that *Alchemy* was considered *heretical* by the authorities before the great witch burnings and persecutions of the post reformation period. incidently Dee survived rather than bruno because Dee fled when it looked like the church was interested in him, and Bruno went to Rome to justify himself- Francis Yates mutters something about being immune to a sense of danger through meglomania. jon Thu Feb 29 08:56:09 1996 Subject: 0338 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium From: LeGrand Cinq-Mars Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:10:46 -0700 (PDT) The improved tolerance of the 16th century is no doubt the reason why the _Malleus Maleficarm_ was published in 1486 and the persecution of witches peaked between 1580 and 1660. This period of enlightened tolerance reached its eirenical climax between 1618 and 1648, in one of the truly characteristic triumphs of the human spirit. As for Dee (1527-1608) and Bruno (1548-1600) having different lifespans because they lived in different periods -- LeGrand Cinq-Mars [email protected] Thu Feb 29 08:57:40 1996 Subject: 0339 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: Julian O'Dea Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:55:29 +1100 Some time ago I asked for opinions on the value or otherwise of Lindsay Clarke's prizewinning novel "The Chymical Marriage" which seems to be based in part on Margaret Attwood's life. I am not sure if my message got through. No comments were forthcoming anyway. Has anyone read the book? Julian [email protected] (Julian O'Dea) Thu Feb 29 08:59:18 1996 Subject: 0340 Beginning alchemy in Las vegas? Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 04:23:04 0800 From: "Andrew M. Minkin" Subject to final approval, I am going to be giving a low cost (<$10), full day lecture and workshop on herbal alchemy on March 31 in las Vegas. This event is sponsored by the Las vegas Pronaos of the Rosicrucian Order, AMORC. I have studied with two illustrious members of this forum, Russ House and Art Kunkin, and am looking for any contributions from any sources that you have found benefit in understanding the basic priniciples of Qabala, spagyric, and other relevant techniques for alchemy. PLease feel free to send any and all attchments to my e-mail address. I am sure Adam would rather not clog the forum with them. Any contributions will be given credit as source material for the class and are greatly appreciated. Don't be shy, I am just a modem call away! Andrew M. Minkin Thu Feb 29 09:01:10 1996 Subject: 0341 Octaves/Harmonics-Hudsons White Powder Gold From: simeon Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 21:48 MST Dear John O' Brien, In response to your question on my previous message in regards to a substance being an octave of another. It is correct that this refers to a frequency harmonic such as in music. An octave is an eighth full tone above a any given tone on the diatonic scale. In the context that I had used the term however, the sound would not be audible, but exist in the etheric dimensions of spiritual reality. All matter has a specific frequency of emission, created by the vibratory activity of its atoms. Again, most of these sounds are not perceivable to the physical ear. An individual who is sensitively attuned to the subtler dimensions of reality might very well be able to perceive them. So, the Etherium / Orme powders are a form of Prima Matra, but vibrating or emitting etheric sounds at a frequency some octaves below the original prima Matra or first unviolate matter. It is similar in concept to water being an octave of steam, the water inherently contains less energy than the staem, but vibrates, or emits etheric sounds at some harmonic of the steam. The steam due to its increased vibratory rate has changed form and somewhat transcended the limitations of its former state as water. This is the same principle that applies to the transfiguration of the human form, as some great Masters have demonstrated. From Simeon Nartoomid Crest in the Stone Mystery School [email protected] Thu Feb 29 09:39:16 1996 Subject: 0342 M.A. Atwood and The Chymical Wedding Julian O'Dea wrote:- >Some time ago I asked for opinions on the value or otherwise of Lindsay >Clarke's prizewinning novel "The Chymical Marriage" which seems to be > based in part on Margaret Attwood's life. I am not sure if my message >got through. No comments were forthcoming anyway. Has anyone read > the book? Lindsay Clarke's book is an excellent modern novel. It is not a biography, but a well paced drama using the events surrounding the publication of Atwood's book as its starting point. It is not historically accurate and introduces other characters into the part of the plot which is set contemporary with Atwood. The view it presents of her personality does not seem to be based on what we know of her, but is the creative invention of the author. Although a good read, it was not intended to, nor does it give us, any new insights into alchemy or M.A. Atwood, as I am sure the author would be the first to recognise. One must not use this book as a source for information on Atwood, nor see it as a valid view of her personality. Adam McLean Thu Feb 29 12:18:53 1996 Subject: 0343 Octaves/Harmonics From: Jason Johns Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:30:22 PST > I'd venture a guess that it relates to the the way that musical notes can > relate in a harmonic fashion to light waves. This was relate in an artical > published by Paracelsus College in the early 80's. I can relate more detail > if anyone wants it. I am intrigued in this message that John wrote. Could you please provide further information for me? Many Thanks Jayzn [[email protected]] Thu Feb 29 12:19:03 1996 Subject: 0344 Margaret South Atwood's Text From: Art Kunkin Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 03:01:23 -0800 (PST) >From: Bill Bunn >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:48:22 -0500 > >Hello there. > >Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's book -- >Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her successfully? > >I'm also looking for some biographical material about her and her times. >If anyone is aware of these kinds of sources please let me know. I would >be extremely grateful. Hello back, After years of looking for a copy of the first edition of "Suggestive Inquiry" I found a copy in Manly Hall's library at the Philosophical Research Society after Manly's death and when I became the new president of the Society. The copy was published in 1850 by Trelawney Saunders, Charing Cross, London and contains handwritten corrections of the many typos in the book, possibly in the hand of Mrs. Atwood. There was a loose sheet of paper in the book in Manly's handwriting which said, "Mary Anne Atwood (South) 1817. Thomas South. 33 years old when book published. 42 married 1859. Rev. Alban Atwood. He died 1883. She died 1910 at 92." (Thomas South, of course, was Mary South's father). Many of the references in the previous alchemy forum responses to your post obviously referred to the Wilmshurst second edition which appeared in 1918 and was reissued in 1960 by Julian Press. This edition was authorized by Mary Atwood after someone threatened to reprint the first edition which Mary and Thomas South had destroyed several days after its printing, presumably because too many alchemical secrets had been revealed. Since discovering the copy of the first edition I have been planning to make a line by line comparison of the first edition to the second to discover these "secrets" but have never had the time to do more than start this project. All of the handwritten notes in the first edition that I was able to pay attention to referred to simple typographical corrections and contained nothing of substance. Manly Hall himself evidently believed that there was no significant difference between the two editions and that the first edition was withdrawn because of its many, many typographical errors on just about every page of the first edition. Mary Atwood wrote nothing after the first edition of "Suggestive Inquiry" was printed (and then largely destroyed except for a few personal copies remaining in her possession). However, four years before, in 1846, she wrote a very interesting thin volume on "Early Magnetism..." Also surviving at this time are a few pages of an alchemical poem by Thomas South which was intended as a companion volume to "Suggestive Inquiry." Thomas South's poem evidently was never completed. Manly Hall's copy was evidently bought at a London auction but the Philosophical Research Society, which was formed after Manly had completed collecting the most important books in his library, doesn't seem to have records of the auction. Another possibly fruitful area of research into Mary Atwood (which research again I began but did not pursue) is to look at the writings of the people in her small circle of friends, some of whom wrote books seemingly based on their conversations with Mary Atwood in the years after 1850. In his introduction to the second edition, Wilmhurst (who also wrote extensively on Masonic history), gives a list of the names of this circle of friends. I found in the reading room of the New York Public Library some books by Madam Isabelle de Steiger, for example, one of the circle mentioned by Wilmshurst, which seemed to expand some ideas given to her by Mrs. Atwood. In his "Table Talk" notes to the second edition, Wilmhurst also includes a very complimentary reference by Mrs. Atwood to an 1847 book by Lorenz Oken titled "Elements of Physiophilosophy." I obtained a copy of this Oken book and it is indeed quite amazing, a complete catalog of the elements according to the four element theory done long before the development of the modern atomic theory of the elements. There is a wonderful photograph of Mrs. Atwood on page 129 of "Secrets of the Alchemists," one of the Time-Life Books series on Mysteries of the Unknown. And, as Adam mentions in his own posting in response to your question, there is a fictional account of the Atwoods in the Lindsay Clark novel, The Chymical Wedding. (The Time-Life "Secrets of the Alchemists" on page 127 also has a photograph of our own Hans Nintzel and a comment about his tincture of rosemary. And I just noticed tonight in "Secrets of the Alchemists" something that I had never noticed before because I never have read that book thoroughly: a mention on the next to last page of my own adventures with Frater Albertus when I moved to Salt Lake City in 1980 to study with him). Just another footnote to this already too-long posting (not that Mrs. Atwood doesn't deserve the attention; it's just that it's now 2:30am in the morning and I have to leave the house to go on a trip at 5:30am!). When Regardie gave me his alchemical library shortly before his death, the only book he held back was his copy of the second edition of "Suggestive Inquiry" because, he told me, he still wasn't finished with it (and, anyway, I did have my own copy of the second edition at the time). Of course, Regardie based his own early book on alchemy, written before he was introduced to actual laboratory alchemy by Albertus, on the translated texts in Atwood. I am not prepared at this time and at this late hour to write about my own impressions of the brilliant Atwood book, which I have admired sufficiently to read from cover to cover at least six times (the first time with the 16 volume Oxford English Dictionary at hand because it is one of the most linguistically complex books I have ever encountered). Although she never evidently did any laboratory work herself, Mrs. Atwood gives one of the most provocative insights possible into the spiritual work that the alchemist must do on himself (or herself) to establish communion with the alchemical lineage and complete the "manual work." And she wasn't an airy-fairy New Ager speaking about simplistic channeling but a rigorous scholar with a deep appreciation of the practical side of the ancient mysteries. For example, she was very excited about the discoveries being made in her time about the nature of hypnotism (or early magnetism) as a clue to the nature of the secret Greek mystery initiations although quite merciless in her criticism of the limited use of hypnotism by modern hypnotists (a criticism true then in 1850 and still true in 1996!). She was an amazing woman, one of the most brilliant minds of the last century and, in my opinion, any work done to further our understanding of her will be a genuine contribution to our alchemical fraternity. So thank you, Bill, for posing your questions about her. And Good Night. Cordially, Art Kunkin Art Kunkin Publisher and Editor, World Wide Free Press URL: http://www.wwfreepress.com/ Voice: 310-455-2451 E-Mail: [email protected] Snail Mail: 115 S. Topanga Canyon Blvd, Suite #166 Topanga, CA 90290, U.S.A. "It's Never Too Late To Have A Happy Childhood" (Ask me how!) Thu Feb 29 12:25:28 1996 Subject: 0345 FRENCH: cr�er un serveur fran�ais From: chaslin Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:26:14 +0100 Chres freres d'Heliopolis, Je ne sais combien vous =EAtes, etudiants, curieux, adeptes peut-=EAtre = =E0 rechercher sur l'Internet _cree au fond pour des chercheurs, =E0= l'origine, dont les plus tenaces, humbles et patients d'entre nous meritent bien le qualificatif_ quelque lumiere, justification, ou juste le reconfort, aux moments, bien reguliers et intenses, o=F9 viennent les doutes et le decouragement, ou bien ces instants o=F9, pour se delasser sans detend= re l'arc de la concentration, l'on vient observer les cheminements des autres. On peut critiquer la science moderne et certaines de ses emanations= malsaines, en tout cas on ne peut que louer le principe de l'Internet. De tous temps les grands Adeptes ont cherche =E0 communiquer leur savoir,= m=EAme parfois =E0 des mecreants , pour entretenir l'idee que notre Art n'est= point une chimere. Il serait bon que les freres francais, dont la contribution historique= est immmense et indeniable, et dont l'activite est toujours soutenue, se retrouvent, en complement de ce site si bien documente, sur un terrain= plus familier, compte tenu premierement des difficultes CABBALISITIQUES supplementaires imposees par la traduction anglaise, d'autre part pour pouvoir se retrouver physiquement plus aisement, dans le cas o=F9 une collaboration pratique serait envisagee. C'est pourquoi nous etudions la possibilite d'ouvrir un site Web= francais dedie =E0 l'alchimie, sous la direction d'un Adepte tres erudit,= dont le r=F4le se bornerait toutefois =E0 concentrer les informations et =E0 guider ceux= des etudiants qui se montreraient =E0 la fois les plus sinceres et les plus deireux de s'informer. A la maniere du serveur de Mr McLean, ce site francais serait une collecte d'elements Bilbliographiques en langue francaise toutefois, et de travaux pratiques, ce que n'assure pas encore= le site ecossais, avec eventuellement un forum. Il nous faut pour cela connaitre le potentiel humain present sur les= resaux. Si donc vous pourriez =EAtre interesse(e) par une telle creation,= envoyez un simple courrier =E0 Monsieur Luca Finnel, =E0 l'adresse E-mail: [email protected] Bien =E0 vous tous, Luca Finnel Thu Feb 29 14:06:36 1996 Subject: 0346 "Margaret" Atwood Posts From: Logodox Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 06:33:28 -0600 Dear Forum, Plenty of sites can be found on the WEB for Margaret Atwood...The 20th Century Author. Mary Anne South Atwood is the correct name of the Author of "Suggestive Inquiry Into The Hermetic Philosophy" 1851, Reprinted 1910. (19th Century). Not to nitpick at small differences (Margaret vs Mary) but for those not well versed in Alchemical / Spiritual / Mystical literature of centuries past, this misnomer might cause some confusion... Best, Logodox P.S. Above book is Alchemical Magnum Opus of the 19th Century! nous ----> [email protected] Thu Feb 29 20:06:06 1996 Subject: 0347 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium From: George Randall Leake III Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:44:14 -0600 >LeGrand Cinq-Mars ([email protected]) wrote-->: >As for Dee (1527-1608) and Bruno (1548-1600) having different lifespans >because they lived in different periods -- *Lifespans is not the question; persecution is part of it, and gentle/natural death vs. burning at the stake is the other Thu Feb 29 20:06:21 1996 Subject: 0348 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium From: joshua geller Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:01:21 -0800 > LeGrand Cinq-Mars writes: > This period of enlightened tolerance reached its eirenical climax > between 1618 and 1648, in one of the truly characteristic triumphs > of the human spirit. > As for Dee (1527-1608) and Bruno (1548-1600) having different lifespans > because they lived in different periods -- if bruno had stayed out of italy, or at least not been so good at pissing people off, he would not have been burned. if dee had gone to italy or not been such a diplomatic guy he might have been burned. josh Thu Feb 29 20:06:32 1996 Subject: 0349 FRENCH: Un Adepte ? From: Gilbert Arnold Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:00:04 -0500 Ayant observe depuis quelque le contenu de ces discussions et votre effort louable dans le but de former un website francais j'aimerais a votre attention les points suivants; 1) Une definition d'"Adepte" serait utile. 2) En general, il ya relativement peu de contenu reellement pratique dans ces discussions. Le seul auteur francais recent qui a ecrit sur des travaux "pratiques" est Solazaref. Je sais qu'il ya eu LPN mais... Alors dites-moi, EN TERMES PRATIQUES, qu'avez a offrir a un praticien qui a deja fait la plupart des travaux decrits dans le Char Triomphal et le dernier Testament ? Glaser et Glauber ? Avez vous prepare avec succes le circule mineur d'Urbiger ? Un petit detail technique; quand vous ecrivez avec les accents, le texte se traduit drolement par les ordinateurs Nord- Americains. Thu Feb 29 20:06:43 1996 Subject: 0350 Taoist Pearls Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:46:02 -0500 From: Gilbert Arnold Another version on how that the Chinese define a "Pearl" is the refined essence of the 5 Organs. It is then used for projection of consciousness, healing/martial arts , interaction with earth, interaction with sky and to form the 'embryo'. |
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